Nowhere to run to...you have to engage!
This is a discussion on Nowhere to run to...you have to engage! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; i'll agree with a .22 disabling a vehicle hit in the correct spot...as any gun could....but i dont know where the fiberglass construction came from....tin ...
August 13th, 2010 10:13 AM
i'll agree with a .22 disabling a vehicle hit in the correct spot...as any gun could....but i dont know where the fiberglass construction came from....tin foil would be a more accurate description as the steel used today is very lightweight and easily penetrated....for those of you who do not believe in the effectiveness of a .22 round out of a rifle barrel at relatively close range i suggest you experiment with one...
as far as how good a shot he is you have no idea...you dont know his intentions when he shot in your direction and if youre gonna laugh at his ability...well...only a fool laughs when facing a gun...
escaping in the car is an option if you can get in and drive without exposing yourself to fire through the windows...youre a sitting duck in there and one good shot could take you out...if you are on the driver side you have a shot at getting in enough to start and get the car moving till it provides better cover for you to get in...but rmember with a rifle he still has some range....
30 yards under stress is a long shot for a handgun....retreat is 40 yards away per the op...covering fire endangers a possible live person already on the ground...if an opportunity for a carefully placed shot is available you stand a better chance...enough movement may cause him to unload his gu in your direction depending on how many rounds hes has available...during a reload you may be able to hit him with a wall of bullets...otherwise i would hope you have the opportunity to get a few good shots on him from the cover of the automobile...
August 13th, 2010 10:46 AM
The additional detail doesn't change my reply, only confirms that he "can" shoot... I'm not running into the open for certain now... unless/until I have to. Also confirmed that we have <~> the same number of rounds available now... barring reloads.
Long gun is great at distance and more or less stationary targets (unless this guy's an ex-sniper). The closer in he gets... the more exaggerated his barrel swing has to be to stay on a laterally moving target.
The original premise is that I have to engage... I will, but I am trying to make it more on my terms than his.. So, I wait for him to come to me after I have shot at him. For him, this "changes the game." He was not expecting armed resistance.
My original answer stated that: "I can't guarantee a hit from the initial distance from behind cover but I will shoot at him." I can get as "close" as he did when he shot a 3" group into my engine compartment.
He expected me to flee. Instead I shot back... the guy is not tweaked, stoned or drunk: He shot a 3" group.
He now has to decide, with his distance in his favor, whether to engage me... or flee... He is in the wrong... He knows there are many cameras in the Wally World parking lot... especially closer in... He must suspect that the cavalry is on the way.... His best bet (most rational decision) is to go away and hope to fight again another day...
If he does not realize this, and comes towards me... he is coming into the more effective range of my weapon. The odds are better that I will survive based on caliber alone.
He is skilled, he has killed, he has nothing to lose; but this will be his last stand either way... If he had fled, there was an off chance he might never get caught. I will be shot, he will be shot... we may both die.
His disadvantage now lies in his irrational decision to continue the fight with a cornered animal that has the same ability to inflict deadly harm as him... And the more time wasted, the closer the cavlary is...
Out here in the sticks, the cavalry might not be able to ascertain who the bad guy is... But he has more reason to fear them than I do. They may shoot us both, as we are both armed... and I'm NOT giving up my weapon unless I know the shooter has.
So, there, I've thought out your scenario to the last bullet. Can I think all of that quickly on my feet, if it were to really occur? Maybe, maybe not...
It could be worse!
August 13th, 2010 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by retsupt99
Given the scenario updates I agree with OP's first condition: "Nowhere to run to . . . ." and I would be a 'sitting duck' behind the steering wheel or in the vehicle.
I do not agree with second premise " . . . you have to engage!" Will not engage unless or until he moves into a range or position that maximizes my toolset and skillset.
"It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519
August 13th, 2010 11:50 AM
Excellent answer. Having "been there, done that" in a very similar situation I can say this is spot on! Only thing I can add is make sure that 911 knows you are armed, give them your description and exactly where you are so they can relay to the officers responding to the "shots fired" call. Would not want them to mistake you for the "BG".
Originally Posted by 2fast4u2c
It is better to have less thunder in the mouth and more lightning in the hand. - Apache Proverb
August 13th, 2010 10:23 PM
If someone has fired "8" rounds at me, I'm not going to take the time to identify his rifle caliber; OR check the "grouping" of his shots. (In my mind he just missed. TG!) Hopefully; this gives me time to get as much car as possible between me and he.
If he is "standing" 25-30yrds away, I'm also not overly worried about him skipping shots off the pavement. IMO; the angle is not going to be right for this. (The shooter would probably have to squat or kneel down to get the angle right.)
However once behind my car, I will be concerned about skipping shots of the trunk/hood AND possible shots coming through the doors and windows. For this reason, the only places I plan on looking from are front or rear of the vehicle. (I'm keeping my head down!)
In a large vacant parking lot, I'm not necessarily going to be worried about "over" penetration. My main concern is getting my rounds to hit the target.
One more thing!
If I am being "actively" engaged in a GUNFIGHT, 911 will have to wait until I get things under control. I personally do NOT want ANY distractions while I'm being shot at.
(I can't think of a bigger distraction; than a 911 operator telling me to put my gun down while some bad guy is shooting at me and trying to flank my position.)
August 13th, 2010 10:50 PM
Nothing really to add to this!
Originally Posted by retsupt99
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
August 13th, 2010 11:37 PM
Shoot him in the legs or feet under the car.
"To my mind it is wholly irresponsible to go into the world incapable of preventing violence, injury, crime, and death. How feeble is the mindset to accept defenselessness. How unnatural. How cheap. How cowardly. How pathetic." Ted Nugent
August 13th, 2010 11:40 PM
I think this scenario defines the best reasons to train in low light at 25 - 50 yards - because stuff can happen at any distanc
Last edited by JD; August 14th, 2010 at 11:12 PM.
Reason: Addressed via PM.
August 13th, 2010 11:47 PM
I'm popping the trunk, grabbing my SCAR or AR and this stuff is ON!! Heck, if had a .22 and I knew it, I could just stay behind the glass of the car and shoot through it.
Getting that out of the way, I'm sure I'd drop my bags and move, draw my gun, and throw some lead his way. I will continue to do so until he is no longer a threat....or I'm no longer a threat. I doubt I'd even think or have time to open the trunk, though on my car you use the remote/key and the trunk opens all the way.. Who knows. I've been through 2 bad situations, one very violent, so I'm not waiting for anything if there's a next one.
Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe
August 13th, 2010 11:48 PM
Or a good reason to keep an AR 10 in the trunk.
August 14th, 2010 12:04 AM
I would have to agree that there is no fleeing. If he has already thrown lead my way, then all bets are off. I would find a spot behind a tire and get to a position that I can get a good bead and drop him if possible. If I cant get a bead on him, keep good awareness as to where he was and wait for him(or her) to advance until I could take a shot. The closer he/she gets, the less advantage they have against me. end state, I want to make a dead offender out of this living one.
KAHR CW45, RIA 1911 Officer, S&W Sigma 9MM, Savage 1907 .32cal(BUG)
August 14th, 2010 02:53 AM
I see you missed the part about grabbing cover and then proning out,besides dipstick missed me with multiple rounds,I don't think he's gonna hit a greatly reduced target before I drill him with a couple 230 grain HST
Originally Posted by ksholder
"Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
--Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .
August 15th, 2010 03:33 AM
Obviously get to cover of the car. I would not call 911 yet. I need my strong hand occupied with my gun, and off hand ready for a reload/flashlight depending on how dark it is. Next, as there is no one else seemingly in sight, something I don't think many of us posted, I would let him know I was armed (with something much larger than a .22), I think you know what I mean. As I want every advantage offered to me I have both a night sight and a laser, so hopefully I could get a pretty accurate shot off. I believe at about this point I would be praying that he has gotten smart and turned and burned. We never hope to be put into these situations but sometimes it happens, in this case you may just have to fight it out, and unfortunately you might not make it, (especially if he gets 8 shots off in a meer matter of seconds all within a 3" group from 30 yards off, good luck). I wonder if the caliber of the assailants rifle makes much of a difference, not to highjack the thread, but what if he had a AK47, does the 7.62x39 change anything in this equation?
August 15th, 2010 02:50 PM
Somebody is shooting at me, I'm going to shoot back.
August 16th, 2010 07:14 AM
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