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Nowhere to run to...you have to engage!

3K views 53 replies 34 participants last post by  AlexHassin 
#1 ·
After reading some of the responses in another posts about shooting at 25 yards I came up with this scenario. Yes it would be great to say at that range I would just leave but what if you cant.

You have been shopping at the local Walmart superstore. It is 11:30 pm so when you exit the parking lot is fairly empty. You have parked 5 spaces from the door, about 40 yards in distance.

There are a few other cars spread throughout the parking lot. There are overhead lights that give fairly good illumination. Thirty yards away there are two cars parked side by side in opposite directions. You see three males outside the cars and possibly one inside. You file this info in your SA cabinet and continue to your car.

As you put your items in the car you hear a single gunshot. As you turn toward the sound of the shot one of the three guys sees you and yells at you "What the hell are you looking at?". He then raises and then points a .22 caliber rifle at you. He fires a series of rounds striking the car and narrowly missing you so you know this guy can shoot.

The remaining people all pile into the other car and take off leaving you with the lone shooter. As the car speeds off you see the form of an individual laying on the ground with a GSW to the head.
You can dial 911 but this is a rural Walmart location so a response time of 10 or more minutes is possible. What are you going to do? You can attempt to run to the door but you will have to clear a 40 yard lateral distance before he can cut you down. You can attempt to get into the car and drive away but the gunfire has disabled your vehicle.

You now have no choice but to engage before this guy either gets close enough or works his way around to get a better shot on you. With your EDC and more importantly your skill level what would you do. Your backstop is the store his backstop is the vacant parking lot with a small berm behind him. There are no other persons in the parking lot that you can see.

What options can you come up with?
 
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#2 · (Edited by Moderator)
Am I the only one that has never seen an empty walmart parking lot?
As for the scenario: As soon as you hear the gunshot you should be moving for cover. You should be able to tell what direction it is coming from even if you don't see it happen. If at all possible getting out of the area immediately is the best option IMO. In the given scenario (car disabled), move to cover while drawing and try to get a shot on the BG. Once he is down try to give aid to the first guy that was shot, though with a gun shot to the head theres probably not much you can do. As always call 911 as soon as possible.
 
#4 ·
shot heard, drop everything, draw weapon and take cover because you already suspect where the shot came from beacuse of your earlier filing in the SA cabinet and vehicle hits from rounds fired. Dial 911 and keep online, continue cover and keep BG in your sights all the while you are collecting data for 911. A .22 may have punctured a tire, but your car is still possibly drivable, no other damage could have occured with a .22 that would make a vehicle undrivable even if only to put a distance between you and BG. If not, continue covering BG and wait for LE. BG is not sticking around with his friends gone and a body on the ground. If he approaches you, empty your clip. If he leaves, continue cover and try to get vehicle and perp info because you still have 911 on line then assess necessary aid to person on ground. Try to leave scene intact and don't contaminate any further. Don't touch anything laying on ground or in close proximity. If you can, try and keep others from the store approaching scene and follow instructions from 911 because you are still relaying info all this time.
 
#34 ·
Excellent answer. Having "been there, done that" in a very similar situation I can say this is spot on! Only thing I can add is make sure that 911 knows you are armed, give them your description and exactly where you are so they can relay to the officers responding to the "shots fired" call. Would not want them to mistake you for the "BG".
 
#6 ·
OP, please clarify.....did he "narrowly miss you" on purpose just to prove a point or did he just miss?

Either way, my first option is to get behind my car (truck in my case). Keep him in view at all times. If he takes a step toward you, fire.
 
#8 ·
Draw my weapon (Glock 26 w/two spare mags, giving me 31 rounds), drop behind my car for cover, dial 911 and stay on the line for the duration if possible. I've obviously already attempted to disengage by driving away and have discovered my vehicle is non functional for whatever reasons. There is a 30 yard distance between myself and the BG, with a berm beyond my target (the BG), therefore hitting/injuring bystanders is taken out of the equation. Gunshots from the BG toward me, that miss, are peppering the WalMart store to my back, hopefully alerting employees/customers to also call 911 and take cover. Unfortunately I cannot be concerned with the person that has a GSW lying on the ground. My first concern is defending myself and my position until either LEO arrives, BG departs, or BG attempts to overrun my position. Based on layout presented, there are no cars near enough to me for the BG to work his way closer to me. If he decides to try to charge my position, then he is facing deliberate return fire from myself. From my position I can, if necessary, return fire to keep him from attempting an overrun. I can, if necessary, take my shots IF he exposes himself. I will not attempt to return to the store which is 40 yards away unless it is a last resort. I will hunker down from my position of cover and defend myself until responders arrive.
 
#9 ·
I don't consider somebody firing multiple shots from a rifle at 30 yards and missing as being able to shoot,My eyesight isn't as good as it once was but even when I had 20/20 vision I'm not gonna be able to tell at 30 yards where somebody was shot,but I can guarantee you if I got shot at,I'm grabbing cover and proning out as I draw my 1911 equipped with Big Dot nite sights and putting the dot COM then squeeze
 
#11 ·
I don't consider somebody firing multiple shots from a rifle at 30 yards and missing as being able to shoot, ... but I can guarantee you if I got shot at,I'm grabbing cover and proning out as I draw my 1911 equipped with Big Dot nite sights and putting the dot COM then squeeze
I concur that missing a human sized target from 30 yds with a rifle is pretty poor performance, especially with a relatively stationary target. I am not sure I would prone out in this scenario, however, because your only cover is a car/truck. Proning out puts all your vitals in a position where the BG could hit them without having to go through metal or glass. I would get behind the engine/tire, call 911, keep an eye on the perp and be prepared to stop his attack if he persists. Hitting him at 30 yards should not be a problem if he is not moving around. Hitting him if he closes the distance - his odds keep going down.
 
#10 ·
The first option is to make it to the truck. The way I see it, you have an active shooter engaging you and the fight is on. Although the bleeding hearts here might argue with my response, my second option is to kill the sucker.

I only carry my pistol as a compromise. Someone that engages a rifle shooter with a pistol is not the way to win. I will do that if I have to live, but IF I can make it to my truck my odds will increase.

I will slide out my shotgun and unleash 4 rounds of 00 buck at his sorry excuse for a human being.If that doesn't work due to the range, the next 4 are slugs, and he may be surprised that the vehicle that he is using for cover isn't quite enough to stop the slugs. An added benefit to my setup is that I have another 6 on a side saddle.

When he is flopping around like a head shot turkey screaming for Mama, I will reassess and check out the proximity of his rifle. If he is stupid enough to cling to it I will do what I have to do.

If he is dead, I will put the shotgun back in its case, take off my Rambo bandanna and sit there until the Police arrive. Hopefully a good citizen like Treo will be there to call 911 for me as I'm liable to be a bit nervous by then.:scruntiny:
 
#12 ·
He then raises and then points a .22 caliber rifle at you. He fires a series of rounds striking the car and narrowly missing you so you know this guy can shoot.

I laugh because he missed me at 25 yards with a .22 and I think he can shoot. I laugh harder when I realize that a .22 round somehow disabled my vehicle. I then punch myself in the face and I wake up from this poor dream.
 
#14 ·
If he is closing open ground and able to accurately aim a rifle, he is moving pretty slow. In either case, he is in open ground and I have cover and am stationary. My odds of getting an aimed shot off are better than his and he has already proven that he is a pretty poor shot. When I am behind my car/truck, he will have a head and sholders to aim at, I get his whole torso and head. I continue to like my odds more than his. In a perfect world, you are not at the Walmart and are not being shot at.
 
#20 · (Edited by Moderator)
I agree. My plan may not be for ____, but I have moved from the trunk where he was shooting to an area with ore cover. Moving further in this scenario means moving straight back from my cover point or being exposed. Tough call either way.

I would then sell my pickup the next morning if it can't stand a .22 round and still be operable.
Too right!!! What he said.
 
#16 ·
I don’t own a car, but I’m still trying to figure out how a 22 disabled one. Anywise if it did, and i was in this situation, I think I would call the cops and sit tight behind a wheel or engine and make shore he did not get closer. Basically play the patience game until, he levees or the cops arrive.
 
#18 ·
rip my rear door off it's hinges, use it as a riot shield and advance on him... nah... that won't work....

I know the BG will shoot, not that he can...
Draw, 911 (open line), cover, observe, wait.

He will either:

1. drive off... description of vehicle and direction to 911...

2. or decide to pursue me... He can not seem to hit a target at distance... probably can't hit a moving target... He shot the wounded man close in... If he comes toward me, shots in his direction may dissuade him... I can't guarantee a hit from the initial distance from behind cover but I will shoot at him. If he's dissuaded, he's back to #1 and so am I... If not, and he continues to advance, odds are tipping in my favor... I can move around my car more as he gets closer... I still have 10-12 rounds left in mag. He has taken several shots from his tube, or mag (let's assume we're now both nearly even as to remaining rounds without reload) ... phone is still open... I can move more while still covering.

In the end, assuming I have not disuaded his advance, and neither one of us has fired any more rounds, and we are still equal in rounds available... I will rush him... I am more likely to survive his bullets and poor aim, than he is mine. If I am shot first and out of cover... I stop moving right then... assume the best targeting position available to me, and start shooting COM and head until I am out of boolits, or he falls.
 
#19 ·
Call 911 and be agood witness.

J/k Depending on how my vehicle was setting I would take cover behind it and watch his next move looking under my vehicle possibly taking my shot from here if able to. I'm guessing this guy is going to be heading out at his first opportunity if he has already shot someone. I would then sell my pickup the next morning if it can't stand a .22 round and still be operable.
 
#22 ·
I may be wrong, but I thought anytime somebody deliberately shoots at you and you have the means to defend yourself yourself you should. Since he has a 22 rifle and shot at you what's to stop him from closing his position and shooting again as you get into the car. I believe I would get behind my car for cover and shoot at him. He's only 30 yds away and well within the range of my handgun. Anybody that practices a bit at 25 yards and hits the target should be able to hit him at 30. If hit, even if he gets away he may need medical attention and be caught. With a body on the ground and holes in your car I'd think that's a good defensive action and you should be okay.
 
#23 ·
If at all possible, I'd actually retreat to the store (I couldn't visualize the layout from the OP's description). I'd fire enough "cover" rounds to get myself to the store. I'm a sitting duck at the car. Limited visibility, he can easily continue shooting as he approaches me, limited cover. Why move to inside the store?

1) There are more people there to intercept the bad guy (He can try shooting them all but he'll run out of bullets)
2) There's more ammo and guns available on the inside of the store (I'll gladly pay for it later)
3) Video cameras are everywhere in Wal-Mart. If you do have to take this guy down, it'll be recorded and you won't have to worry about the grand jury. You have "retreated" and now you must stop the threat.
4) Plenty of cover available. Good hiding spots along the aisle.
5) Rarely would criminals ever come on the INSIDE of an enterprise. They would easily be identified and/or killed.
 
#24 ·
Hunker down or shoot and scoot. Which ever makes the most sense at the time.
 
#26 ·
Ok guys should have given more detailed so no one would be confused. He fired 8 rounds from a .22 striking the front quarter panel near the front passenger door in about a three inch grouping he obviously was trying to intimidate you and if he wanted to shoot you he could have.

If you dont think a .22 will disable a vehicle would be happy to demonstrate. Depending on what year vehicle you are driving one round striking any number of electronic control modules or cutting the right wire under the hood or dash will disable your vehicle. The fiberglass construction of modern vehicles will not stop a .22 round or an icepick for that matter. For those of you who drive older model all steel trucks or cars just to make sure that your vehicle cannot be disabled by gunfire then lets say you left the radio on and the battery is dead, whatever reason the car/truck will not start.

If you have never seen a Walmart parking lot empty then great substitute Bobs House of All Nights Widgets then the place does not matter. Cyanlite not a problem. Imagine a triangle and you are at the top point. At the two bottom points are the entrances to the store, the grocery portion on one side and the store entrance on the other. Both doors are about equal distance from you, about 40 yards and your vehicle sits about 50 yards from the front of the building. Hope that helps.

Generally speaking anyone armed with a rifle, even a .22, has a person armed with a handgun outgunned as far as range goes so you either have to attempt to run, outflank or close the distance and directly engage the threat. There have been some good suggestions anything that is semi solid will probably stop a .22, but a .22 will richochet off a solid objects, like pavement, very easily so watch where you position yourself around the vehicle.

The point of all this guys is to show that in theory there may be a time when you have to engage someone beyond the normal statistical SD distances. Will something like this ever happen lord I hope not but at least you can say you at least you were able to think about it.
 
#27 ·
He fired 8 rounds from a .22 striking the front quarter panel near the front passenger door in about a three inch grouping he obviously was trying to intimidate you and if he wanted to shoot you he could have.
Is he an assailant or a exhibition shooter? If he fired 8 rounds and missed me purposefully...he's shooting to intimidate mot kill, meaning...he wants me to get away...or go away...so of course I will.
 
#29 ·
Find cover and be prepared to move, call 911, stay alert, be prepared to fire if he moves closer.
I too, have never really spotted an 'empty' Wally World parking lot...they usually don't plan for WW stores in remote areas.:ticking:
 
#33 ·
Find cover and be prepared to move, call 911, stay alert, be prepared to fire if he moves closer. . . . . . .
+1 retsupt99
Given the scenario updates I agree with OP's first condition: "Nowhere to run to . . . ." and I would be a 'sitting duck' behind the steering wheel or in the vehicle.

I do not agree with second premise " . . . you have to engage!" Will not engage unless or until he moves into a range or position that maximizes my toolset and skillset.
 
#30 ·
Obviously you quickly seek cover first. But once again make one very thing clear, a handgun is generally no match for a rifle even if the guy is only an average or less shooter. You have to engage if you have no other option and he closes the distance. If he was just firing at you to intimidate you stay put and call the law.
 
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