From the way I read the original post, it seemed that there were 2 males. One was the aggressor, the other one was the follower. The other 2 kept walking. A 4 on 1 situation would draw a different responce from me. In some states, 4 people would represent reasonable grounds to draw a weapon. 4 unarmed people can kill you. For that matter, 1 unarmed person could kill you. The main purpose for my statement was to encourage a different state of mind thoughout the gun toting community. One, to make them aware that they do have other options that fit a particular situation. Some feel that carrying takes away their rights to basic self defence just because they have a gun. Two, to make sure they know that just because they have a gun, doesn't mean that that should be their first line of defence in the hopes that that would encourage them and others to seek more knowledge on hand to hand techniques. My line of thinking is that my gun is my last line of defence and that it should only be used once all of my other options are exhausted. Or if someone is threatening my life with deadly force. Everyones health comes into play when determining what their definition of deadly force is. But keep in mind that if everyone automatically choses a firearm to address any issue that they face, we become gun fanatics and the anti's love that.
its situations like these that I like a small can of pepper spray. Not saying I would have used it here, but definitely would have if he escilated this any further by directly verbally threatened harm to me, or by his actions.
I think you did ok.
Some of these little cliques/groups wander around all day trying to intimidate and challenge people. Your g/fs comment gave them an excuse to push it (if she had said nothing they probably would have used something else) with you and your refusal to engage, allowed them to regain face by your "wussing out" - the right thing to do. They will usually, but not always, back off if they feel that they have backed you down.
I would not physically engage them, too many shanks. I would back off until I could not any more, then draw down on them with some appropriate verbage. They would still shout insults as they backed off and left, that's the nature of things. The above is not a suggestion, just what I would do after working with them for years.
You did a good job - better than I would've done.
I'm of the same mindset here. Say what you want, taunt me all day, but do NOT even attempt to TOUCH. You handled yourselves just fine. I would've, as others posted, alerted at least mall security during or just after the incident occured. These kind of dirt-bags are just spoiling for a fight.....and your GF gave them an 'in' to confront and escalate the situation. Be careful and discuss this with the GF just as your discussing/critiquing here. Be mindful of how ya'll respond to some stupid idiot catcalling or otherwise being a jerk towords your lady-friend....or you.
Originally Posted by mr.stuart
Making a 'scene', vocalizing your intent to retreat and commanding him to stop was textbook in getting attention and allowing potential witnesses to assess what was going on. Now, if these yahoo's continued to advance and push a confrontation, making his/thier intent clear.......... well, then it'd get dicey. Retreating is best option but if your back is to the wall and you 'contained' in the Gap, then you'd be forced to take 'that' action. Disparity of force and your ability to prove that you made every reasonable attempt to get outta there and escape the situation would be the best/only defence after the fact. You were right as well, a crowded mall is Not a place to engage with a sidearm unless no other option can be reasonably employed.
Bravo Zulu on keeping your head and wits about you and getting outta there with nothing more than something to talk about and learn from.
I'd say this mall incident is much like a road rage incident. Leave it alone, put them on ignore and just keep moving along safely.
When he followed you to the store, I'd say much of that was about pride, intimidation, and stupidity on his part. When you raised your voice and drew attention to yourself (you gained witnesses) I think you discouraged him from escalating the situation, and that worked for you.
Good job on using the restraint in not brandishing your weapons.
It's important to have effective options to utilize and defuse situations like this. If he'd stayed at the door, still insulting, etc, let's hear what else could you do other than call mall security?
You did fine. I respond to things in the following order. It sounds like you only got to #2:
3. Obtain assistance from Police, security...
5. Respond with a reasonable amount of force
6. Clean up
Telling them loudly to "leave us alone", drawing the attention of others in the store - well done. You made it clear to witnesses who the aggressor was. Then the coyote slinks away like the coward he is. You did right, nobody got hurt, plus you didn't have to waste any of your vacation time explaining to cops or a jury why anything more forceful was required, be it OC spray, taser, deadly weapon. I mean, even if you let him know you were carrying, you run the risk of a 911 call about "man with a gun". I call your reaction very level-headed. And like others mentioned, continued condition orange is warranted as you leave the store and the mall... but I imagine you were very aware of your surroundings until you were far from that mall.
Pepper Spray em, then call ICE.
I think that you handled yourself just fine. As already mentioned, my concern would be when leaving the mall area...your head would have to be on a swivel.
I despise these young thugs. Our local mall usually runs these 'gangs, clubs, groups of three or more' out. I'm probably too old to be a target for a challenge (over my wife), so if approached, I know that there are other intended actions.
I don't really care about 'comments' anymore, and I would just ignore them as if I were a deaf/mute and move on. I will not engage, give attentions to, or give a comment or a look back...but don't touch me.
Once touched, I'll have different plans. I can be seen as a very unfriendly 'old man'.
completely ignore them altogether which is easier said than done but they were probably part of a gang related to MS13 and anymore than you did could have been a very bad situation. The first thing you do when you are near a pack of wolves you keep your mouth closed and get distance away while watching the threats in their case "their hands" not their mouths" and continue walking to mall security. They probably were armed and were tying you to see if they could get a reaction, don't play that game just watch them and get help. During the observation if it escalates you destroy the threat, period. What would have been halarious is if you told mall security that the guys were armed gang bangers waving a gun at people then watch when they get taken down by not only mall security but L.E and maybe even feds then as you watch from a distance smile and flick them the bird as they eat the bottom of a cops boot.
Be careful with making false complaints/reports, you could end up facing a judge for such actions...I'm just sayin', but I know how you feel.:yup:
Originally Posted by patrol
Sorry for the late reply everyone, I was on the back from Dallas (now back in Houston). I talked with my gf and informed her of the situation and we both realized our mistakes. From what she was saying, it was a natural reaction from her (weather it be seen as good or bad), but I informed her of what we all discussed here.
We both did keep our head on a swivel and I felt very paranoid as we were walking to the car. Sorry I forgot to mention that in the original post.
As for hand to hand, I know some Krav Maga, but mainly Judo and Muay Thai. I am confident in a one on one hand to hand combat, maybe even two vs one, but I am not sure of 4 vs 1. I am of average build and around 5'9 @ 190lbs. I was thinking if he did engage, I could have fought back without a weapon, but the other three guys is what worried me. Also, as most of you have said, I wasn't sure if any of them had any weapons.
After this situation, I decided I am going to purchase the Kimber Guardian (or something similar; still shopping).
I now see why being 'orange' is so stressful. After a few hours, my body was finally able to calm itself down, and I continued to enjoy our mini vacation. My legs were shaking after the encounter and everything.
Centermass: I am not offended by the 'empty tool box'. As I read what it meant, I agree with you.
It's funny that someone mentioned (the screen name slips my mind), but I did feel that carrying a weapon/gun made me feel as though I shouldn't/couldn't defend myself.
Thank you all for your support and input.
I have to base my answer on FL laws. No, you couldn't draw, as a verbal threat only without a threatening action is not grounds for using deadly force (drawing a firearm included).
Quit worrying about a bullet penetrating. Are you going to say, "Gee, St. Peter, I could have saved myself, but I thought the bullet might pass through so I didn't defend myself"?
They're punks; they'll never live to have grandchildren.
Make sure you do. Continue to walk away. And watch your six.
Penetration isn't the concern in a mall. The concern is missing and hitting an innocent. That's why in an earlier post here I suggested that you almost have to shove it into their belly so there is no way it will miss.
Originally Posted by OldVet
Here, the law is clear that you are responsible for where your bullet lands, even if you accidentally harm someone during an otherwise righteous shooting. For this reason, the mall scenario is a particularly bad one for defending with a firearm. And overall, the scenario is a really bad one if the thugs push things.
The defender at best will be reduced to pepper and H2H against multiple attackers armed with knives. Because, even if you draw, unless that causes them to rethink fast and flee, you can't really afford to fire except at contact point, right on the chest, head or abdomen.
Flashlight used as a kubaton like device could come in handy.
I'd not thought about this scenario before the OP posted it, but it really is a defender's nightmare, almost as bad as being stuck in a subway between stations.