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So I went Orange at the mall today (critique?)

5K views 73 replies 46 participants last post by  TVJ 
#1 ·
Hi all,

So I am in Dallas to visit some friends/family and their new dog. I went to their Galleria (big mall) with them to look around. We were walking around (like anyone would at the mall) and were heading toward the gap. A group of 4 Hispanic males were walking passed us, one tried to cut between my girlfriend and I (walking side by side). So we just avoided him and one of the males "hooted/cat called" at her and said something like "hey baby" and something else that was towards sexual harassment, but we didn't hear it clearly.

My girlfriend obviously was offended and just basically said "excuse me, gross", and we continued walking to the Gap. One of the taller males (maybe 6 foot; I am about 5"8) got upset and started towards our way. As normal, I check my 6 and see him coming towards us while we are in the store.

He starts name calling to me basically trying to start a fight (one other male went with his friend). "What did you say b***", etc." The typical tough guy persona. He is maybe about 20 feet away from me (like at the entrance and we are at the first display how they normally display clothes). So he starts cussing some more trying to provoke us (both my gf and I carry; Beretta px4 sc and Glock 26 respectively). I raise my voice and tell him to back off and I get the attention of a few store workers and other shoppers. He starts cussing and I yell "leave us alone please!" The male begins to call me a little b**** and then "that's what I thought", walks away.

From what I've read on the boards, I did the right thing. But I was so upset and angered that he and his friends would treat women the way they do (especially my gf). As I was playing the situation in my head, if he approached more, how would you guys have handled it?

My thought was...if he approached, legally would I be cleared to "engage"? My number one thought is NO. The mall is crowded and if were to draw and shoot, it may go through him. So the field behind the bg was not clear.

EDC: Sog flash II (3.5" blade) and Glock 26. Gf usually has pepper spray, but left it back at home in our town.

Thoughts? Critique? What would you have done if the bf didn't back off? Although I feel this is a stupid reason to fight over, I was shook up by thinking..."wow...someone is going to get hurt over a stupid sexual remark". My legs were shaking afterwards and I was just so frustrated/PO'd. Sigh of relief though..no one got hurt, no legal troubles. so...I was happy with that.
 
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#2 ·
The first thing I would've done from the beginning is ignore them, and then report them to the mall security. The moment your girlfriend made the comment it gave them a reason to return and harass you some more. Now, under your circumstances and the way the situation really played out, I would probably have done the same thing, but after the interaction I would have reported these scum bags to security, asap.
 
#4 ·
I think you reacted appropriately as shooting an unarmed thug, regardless of his actions, is not ok with the law. My suggestion is that you need to carry a less lethal defense weapon such as pepper spray, taser, kubaton, a tactical pen or flashlight or an expandable baton in case you might need it to defend your ground. Additionally, some self defense classes might come in handy such as Krav Maga, Karate or Jiu Jitsu in order to learn some striking techniques such as kicks, punches, elbows and knees as well as some head locks and block moves.

Nonetheless, the best thing to do is ignore such characters and just have the confidence that if "sh$t hits the fan" you have the comfort of being able to unholster your Glock 26 and take care of business.
 
#12 ·
I think you reacted appropriately as shooting an unarmed thug, regardless of his actions, is not ok with the law. My suggestion is that you need to carry a less lethal defense weapon such as pepper spray, taser, kubaton, a tactical pen or flashlight or an expandable baton in case you might need it to defend your ground. Additionally, some self defense classes might come in handy such as Krav Maga, Karate or Jiu Jitsu in order to learn some striking techniques such as kicks, punches, elbows and knees as well as some head locks and block moves.

Nonetheless, the best thing to do is ignore such characters and just have the confidence that if "sh$t hits the fan" you have the comfort of being able to unholster your Glock 26 and take care of business.
Just as an aside, the bolded is not always entirely accurate. There are far too many "circumstances" that change things when it comes to the law, and especially local laws differing. Disparity of force comes to mind. 2(and one of those 2 possibly being 5' nothin and 100lbs soaking wet) on 4-6 able bodied men is no fun and someone(ie the outnumbered or undersized) could very well die or worse.
 
#5 ·
Tough situation. I'd like to hear if anyone thinks a cell phone call to 911 would be appropriate as a crime of assault was clearly committed.

Its a shame the dirt were able to just walk away. But, rest assured, they will be behind bars within hours if not days for one thing or another. Anyone who would start trouble in a crowded mall lacks an ability to assess risk and to control themselves.

As for the remarks about non-lethal and self defense, all fine but keep in mind these guys probably all had knives or other forms of blade. And even if they showed them, you really can't defend with a gun in that environment because of the excessive danger to others--for which you would be liable.

This is one of those interesting situations where OC and a Taser might actually come in handy. It might be one of those situations in which displaying might work--- keeping in mind that opens up lots of additional jeopardy but better a charge of intentional display than accidentally drilling the innocent mall walker behind the BG.

I'm glad you posted this scenario (happening). Its one that needs some thinking about.
 
#6 ·
Be a good witness.

Sorry, had to get that one out of the way. You handled it well, except if he followed me in the store, I'd yell (like a b****) for Mall Security/cops. Don't hesitate to do so next time. Because next time you may end up getting jumped by all 4 of those guys and would have put you in an extremely uncomfortable situation. I know those guys might have all been unarmed, but the fecal matter could have hit the rotary impeller, and it would have been BEST if mall security was already on their way. Just think to yourself what you would have done if all 4 approached you in a threatening manner. Would you have drawn then? I probably would have, but only after I've made a really good case for doing so (yelling for help/cops, retreating, running away). Once you draw your weapon, you have pretty much put yourself into a shoot-first mode. Legally, you'd probably be in a much better situation if you had to fire against unarmed BGs if you made it pretty clear that you were retreating and they continued to pursue you and that you made an attempt to contact law enforcement. The multitude of folks in the mall would have been witnesses that "four guys were chasing this guy-and-girl couple who were screaming for help, and they kept chasing them and then all I heard were 16 gun shots."

Also, watch your six next time as you EXIT the mall. They could have been waiting to ambush you on the way out.
 
#7 ·
Everyone's different and handles things their own way. You did fine. I would probably have stopped, said nothing and just looked at him and waited to see how it played out - but - maybe not, dunno until your really in a situation till you know what you'll do. You think you would handle one way and might but might not if/when it happens.

Anyway, you did fine - glad your okay.
 
#9 ·
Call security,call the cops.The best thing to say to people that insult is nothing.Guys like these clowns thrive on a response.Since I am in my 50's,the opinion of scum like this matters not.Cuss me,cuss my wife,who cares. They say these things to get a response,to feel you out and pump up their non-existant self esteem. Punks look for a reason,in their mind, and an opening.Now if they want to touch,, :nono:
 
#20 ·
Call security,call the cops.The best thing to say to people that insult is nothing.Guys like these clowns thrive on a response.Since I am in my 50's,the opinion of scum like this matters not.Cuss me,cuss my wife,who cares. They say these things to get a response,to feel you out and pump up their non-existant self esteem. Punks look for a reason,in their mind, and an opening.Now if they want to touch,, :nono:
I'm of the same mindset here. Say what you want, taunt me all day, but do NOT even attempt to TOUCH. You handled yourselves just fine. I would've, as others posted, alerted at least mall security during or just after the incident occured. These kind of dirt-bags are just spoiling for a fight.....and your GF gave them an 'in' to confront and escalate the situation. Be careful and discuss this with the GF just as your discussing/critiquing here. Be mindful of how ya'll respond to some stupid idiot catcalling or otherwise being a jerk towords your lady-friend....or you.

Making a 'scene', vocalizing your intent to retreat and commanding him to stop was textbook in getting attention and allowing potential witnesses to assess what was going on. Now, if these yahoo's continued to advance and push a confrontation, making his/thier intent clear.......... well, then it'd get dicey. Retreating is best option but if your back is to the wall and you 'contained' in the Gap, then you'd be forced to take 'that' action. Disparity of force and your ability to prove that you made every reasonable attempt to get outta there and escape the situation would be the best/only defence after the fact. You were right as well, a crowded mall is Not a place to engage with a sidearm unless no other option can be reasonably employed.

Bravo Zulu on keeping your head and wits about you and getting outta there with nothing more than something to talk about and learn from.
 
#10 ·
Don't be offended by the statement I'm about to make. What you experienced is empty tool box syndrome. Empty tool box symdrome is what mechanics commonly experience. Basically, a mechanic will use a cresent wrench, when he has a whole tool box full of better tools for the job. You have a whole tool box full of better tools to use, but thought of you firearm (cresent wrench) first. Pull the other tools out of the box. The guy didn't show any weapon, so when he followed you, you reacted by commanding him to stop and leave you alone. That was the right way to address the situation at that point. If he would have tried to get physical, you should have been ready to defend yourself with your other weapons. But continue to command him to back off so that by standers see that you aren't the aggressor. If he escalates the situation, this is where self defence technique comes in. Kick to the shin, jab to the throat, poke in the eye, ect.. (even ultimate fighters quit fighting when poked in the eye) Some of the simplest moves yield the biggest results. Your firearm should only be used if the situation becomes life threatening or with the threat of major injury. Always be aware, but remember that your firearm isn't the only tool you have to take care of a job. You don't use a sledgehammer to drive a finishing nail. It's just a good way to smash your finger. But keep in mind, just because you have a firearm doesn't mean you have to be passive. You still have the right to defend yourself, just to a different degree.
 
#14 ·
As reasonable and sensible as your post is, there is still a great disparity of force in the described situation. OP could be punched down to the concrete and bashed to a coma in a second or two. H2H probably would not be a winner by itself unless OP is really tough and good. Remember, that disparity of force comes from the numbers, 4 on one, and is as dangerous as knife blades in terms of legally conveying a believable threat of imminent serious harm or death.

The really big problem OP has as a defender here is simply that you can't use a firearm in that environment except perhaps by literally shoving the muzzle into the attacker.

I do agree with you (Centermass) that this might be one of those times when screaming loudly might turn things.
However--
As for getting rescued by mall security, ayyyyy. Not at the mall near me. The big boy who has that job can hardly carry himself and would end up on his back, feet in the air, helpless as a turtle on its back. Probably he couldn't dash 100 feet without taking a 5 minute breather. He'd make a good witness to the OPs beat down if he somehow managed to get there in time.

I hope somehow the guy (mall security) doesn't see this, as he is probably a decent enough person, and I don't want to hurt his feelings. No, no rescue coming from mall security. Maybe from a decent bystander or two, one would hope.
 
#11 ·
From what I've read on the boards, I did the right thing. But I was so upset and angered that he and his friends would treat women the way they do (especially my gf). As I was playing the situation in my head, if he approached more, how would you guys have handled it?
Every situation's different. I think you did just fine. You did't take the bait you'd been offered in that sad excuse for a felonious chest-thumping game those idiots wanted to play.

A reply such as "excuse me, gross" in response to directed harassment isn't hardly ante into a game of assault and battery. Those thugs thought so, but then most of the trash at the local parks and other spots where such people are easily offended by the "wrong" look or simple statements as your friend gave don't see things rationally. While one can argue nothing should have been said in response, since it's possible it might have been dropped at that point, it's also entirely likely they'd have taken anything as an offense directed at them ... whether that would be ignoring them, attempting to go around them, or responding in any manner at all. They wanted engagement, and you two weren't playing ball. Tough.

You're asking how you did? Think about it. Multiple people on one (or two)? Someone seriously larger and more aggressive than you? With a loved one to worry about? Where the largest and most aggressive was clearly threatening you to fight (or be stomped)? Seems to me that you dealt with their idiocy just right. You ensured you got the attention of people around you (AKA, witnesses), such that if anything did occur you would be SEEN as the good guys. That's crucial. Though, what those idiots didn't realize is that you were all likely being filmed anyway. You also ensured you were completely prepared to resist, by quickly identifying their goal and watching their proximity. As well, you also kept out of "the corner," by not getting stuck where they'd have every advantage. I doubt very seriously any of those thugs would have survived their misguided encounter, or that many of the witnesses would have seen it much different than you explained it above.

You also made it through the situation unscathed, unharmed and better for the encounter. Having an opportunity to think through the minor pros/cons of each step will help you improve for when the next encounter finds you.

I, too, would have reported the thugs. NOBODY is required to suffer through actual assaults and credible threats of physical violence. To a mall of businesses, those thugs represent lost customers, risk of injured customers, risk of lawsuits. There's no way that the mall would tolerate them being there, if they could catch them and remove them from the premises based on legitimate charges. Something to think about for the next time.
 
#13 ·
I think you reacted appropriately as shooting an unarmed thug, regardless of his actions, is not ok with the law.
Untrue, in Oregon and many other states.

According to Oregon's statutes on the use of force, the "reasonable man" standard applies to a person's use of the degree of force deemed necessary to stop the threat. Particularly in situations such as multiple-on-one attacks (or at least pack-hunting with taunts and a high likelihood of impending violence), attacks by much larger or more aggressive persons, or when the attacker(s) have weapons of some kind, the principle of "disparity of force" comes into play as well. NOBODY is required to suffer through violence and avoid the use of their effective means of defense merely because the violent attackers don't visually appear to be armed at the outset. Read your state's statutes, as they should clarify the actual legal limitations your community has set on your actions.
 
#16 ·
From the way I read the original post, it seemed that there were 2 males. One was the aggressor, the other one was the follower. The other 2 kept walking. A 4 on 1 situation would draw a different responce from me. In some states, 4 people would represent reasonable grounds to draw a weapon. 4 unarmed people can kill you. For that matter, 1 unarmed person could kill you. The main purpose for my statement was to encourage a different state of mind thoughout the gun toting community. One, to make them aware that they do have other options that fit a particular situation. Some feel that carrying takes away their rights to basic self defence just because they have a gun. Two, to make sure they know that just because they have a gun, doesn't mean that that should be their first line of defence in the hopes that that would encourage them and others to seek more knowledge on hand to hand techniques. My line of thinking is that my gun is my last line of defence and that it should only be used once all of my other options are exhausted. Or if someone is threatening my life with deadly force. Everyones health comes into play when determining what their definition of deadly force is. But keep in mind that if everyone automatically choses a firearm to address any issue that they face, we become gun fanatics and the anti's love that.
 
#18 ·
I think you did ok.
Some of these little cliques/groups wander around all day trying to intimidate and challenge people. Your g/fs comment gave them an excuse to push it (if she had said nothing they probably would have used something else) with you and your refusal to engage, allowed them to regain face by your "wussing out" - the right thing to do. They will usually, but not always, back off if they feel that they have backed you down.

I would not physically engage them, too many shanks. I would back off until I could not any more, then draw down on them with some appropriate verbage. They would still shout insults as they backed off and left, that's the nature of things. The above is not a suggestion, just what I would do after working with them for years.
 
#21 ·
I'd say this mall incident is much like a road rage incident. Leave it alone, put them on ignore and just keep moving along safely.

When he followed you to the store, I'd say much of that was about pride, intimidation, and stupidity on his part. When you raised your voice and drew attention to yourself (you gained witnesses) I think you discouraged him from escalating the situation, and that worked for you.

Good job on using the restraint in not brandishing your weapons.

It's important to have effective options to utilize and defuse situations like this. If he'd stayed at the door, still insulting, etc, let's hear what else could you do other than call mall security?
 
#22 ·
You did fine. I respond to things in the following order. It sounds like you only got to #2:

1. Avoid
2. De-escalate
3. Obtain assistance from Police, security...
4. Evade
5. Respond with a reasonable amount of force
6. Clean up
 
#23 ·
Telling them loudly to "leave us alone", drawing the attention of others in the store - well done. You made it clear to witnesses who the aggressor was. Then the coyote slinks away like the coward he is. You did right, nobody got hurt, plus you didn't have to waste any of your vacation time explaining to cops or a jury why anything more forceful was required, be it OC spray, taser, deadly weapon. I mean, even if you let him know you were carrying, you run the risk of a 911 call about "man with a gun". I call your reaction very level-headed. And like others mentioned, continued condition orange is warranted as you leave the store and the mall... but I imagine you were very aware of your surroundings until you were far from that mall.
 
#25 ·
I think that you handled yourself just fine. As already mentioned, my concern would be when leaving the mall area...your head would have to be on a swivel.

I despise these young thugs. Our local mall usually runs these 'gangs, clubs, groups of three or more' out. I'm probably too old to be a target for a challenge (over my wife), so if approached, I know that there are other intended actions.
I don't really care about 'comments' anymore, and I would just ignore them as if I were a deaf/mute and move on. I will not engage, give attentions to, or give a comment or a look back...but don't touch me.
Once touched, I'll have different plans. I can be seen as a very unfriendly 'old man'.
 
#26 ·
completely ignore them altogether which is easier said than done but they were probably part of a gang related to MS13 and anymore than you did could have been a very bad situation. The first thing you do when you are near a pack of wolves you keep your mouth closed and get distance away while watching the threats in their case "their hands" not their mouths" and continue walking to mall security. They probably were armed and were tying you to see if they could get a reaction, don't play that game just watch them and get help. During the observation if it escalates you destroy the threat, period. What would have been halarious is if you told mall security that the guys were armed gang bangers waving a gun at people then watch when they get taken down by not only mall security but L.E and maybe even feds then as you watch from a distance smile and flick them the bird as they eat the bottom of a cops boot.
 
#27 ·
What would have been halarious is if you told mall security that the guys were armed gang bangers waving a gun at people then watch when they get taken down by not only mall security but L.E and maybe even feds then as you watch from a distance smile and flick them the bird as they eat the bottom of a cops boot.
Be careful with making false complaints/reports, you could end up facing a judge for such actions...I'm just sayin', but I know how you feel.:yup:
 
#28 ·
Sorry for the late reply everyone, I was on the back from Dallas (now back in Houston). I talked with my gf and informed her of the situation and we both realized our mistakes. From what she was saying, it was a natural reaction from her (weather it be seen as good or bad), but I informed her of what we all discussed here.

We both did keep our head on a swivel and I felt very paranoid as we were walking to the car. Sorry I forgot to mention that in the original post.

As for hand to hand, I know some Krav Maga, but mainly Judo and Muay Thai. I am confident in a one on one hand to hand combat, maybe even two vs one, but I am not sure of 4 vs 1. I am of average build and around 5'9 @ 190lbs. I was thinking if he did engage, I could have fought back without a weapon, but the other three guys is what worried me. Also, as most of you have said, I wasn't sure if any of them had any weapons.

After this situation, I decided I am going to purchase the Kimber Guardian (or something similar; still shopping).

I now see why being 'orange' is so stressful. After a few hours, my body was finally able to calm itself down, and I continued to enjoy our mini vacation. My legs were shaking after the encounter and everything.

Centermass: I am not offended by the 'empty tool box'. As I read what it meant, I agree with you.

It's funny that someone mentioned (the screen name slips my mind), but I did feel that carrying a weapon/gun made me feel as though I shouldn't/couldn't defend myself.

Thank you all for your support and input.
 
#29 ·
I have to base my answer on FL laws. No, you couldn't draw, as a verbal threat only without a threatening action is not grounds for using deadly force (drawing a firearm included).

Quit worrying about a bullet penetrating. Are you going to say, "Gee, St. Peter, I could have saved myself, but I thought the bullet might pass through so I didn't defend myself"?

They're punks; they'll never live to have grandchildren.

Make sure you do. Continue to walk away. And watch your six.
 
#30 ·
Quit worrying about a bullet penetrating. Are you going to say, "Gee, St. Peter, I could have saved myself, but I thought the bullet might pass through so I didn't defend myself"?
Penetration isn't the concern in a mall. The concern is missing and hitting an innocent. That's why in an earlier post here I suggested that you almost have to shove it into their belly so there is no way it will miss.

Here, the law is clear that you are responsible for where your bullet lands, even if you accidentally harm someone during an otherwise righteous shooting. For this reason, the mall scenario is a particularly bad one for defending with a firearm. And overall, the scenario is a really bad one if the thugs push things.

The defender at best will be reduced to pepper and H2H against multiple attackers armed with knives. Because, even if you draw, unless that causes them to rethink fast and flee, you can't really afford to fire except at contact point, right on the chest, head or abdomen.

Flashlight used as a kubaton like device could come in handy.

I'd not thought about this scenario before the OP posted it, but it really is a defender's nightmare, almost as bad as being stuck in a subway between stations.
 
#31 ·
I think you did everything right. However, your GF needs to learn to ignore such comments.

A similar thing happened to me back when I was 19 and full of spit & vinegar. I almost went to prison for A&B with intent and deadly weapon. (I had left two pro athletes laying on the street. I thought one was dead and knew another was badly injured. Two others ran for their life after I disarmed their buddies of a knife and club.) I then fled the scene because another guy attacked me with a knife and some more of their friends were coming to their aid.

Long story short the judge did NOT believe that "I" being 5'4" 120lbs (soaking wet) would intentionally start a fight with FOUR large Pro Athletes. I was then sued for ruining the sucessfull career of one the players. But, I ended up only having to pay for the ER & hospital stay.

On a side note:
Even though I was in the "RIGHT", thinking I may have killed someone was a TERRIFYING experience!
 
#32 ·
As far as I'm concerned there is no way of knowing what the correct response to these situations is going to be until what you do works. (As long as you don't go for your gun while there is no immediate and unavoidable deadly threat.)

What I'm saying is often times these thugs are always on the prowl to harass and harangue people. What they want to do is get enjoyment out of scaring people, humiliating them or as the ante increases, it often ends up in an assault or robbery or murder. They go with the flow and often times they are not intentionally out to commit a murder or rape or a robbery, however they will readily go to that depending on your response to their challenge.

So when they start to engage, you really have no way of knowing how it's going to play out, because they aren't exactly sure either. But, they are always ready to step it up in an instant.

So, in this situation, they intentionally tried to get a rise out of you by being rude and disrespectful. They tried to cut between you when you were clearly walking side by side as a couple. They knew exactly what they were doing. As they brushed and made physical contact, they then went for the verbal harassment and degrading comments all looking for a response from YOU! They wanted to see if you would engage them in their game, cower and pee your pants, ignore them or stand your ground.

What you have to know and at least assume is that at least several of the group is going to be armed. Either with a knife or a gun as the most common and possibly some lesser common thing like a bike chain or maybe some short club type weapon.

Now, had you presented a gun when none of them were brandishing any weapons of their own.... they would have immediately cried "Foul" and turned the tables on you by calling the cops on you. They would claim you were some over-reactionary nut with a gun and they were merely choir boys who accidentally "bumped the lady." And there you'd be, standing there holding a gun in front of God and all the other witnesses.

Now, let's say you totally ignored them and did absolutely nothing. I can tell you that in the world of street gangs, and thugs, they see that as you being afraid of them and now they've got you! What they usually do is step it up by exclaiming you are being disrespectful to them and they go from there. Sure they could just drop it altogether and let things lay right there when you ignore them and that would be a good for you. However, I think most often they see some scared person who is afraid of them and they capitalize on that and step things up a bit.

Now we have what you chose to do. You entered a store where there were not only other patrons, but more importantly, store employees who have a vested interest in not having a shootout in their store. They are more apt to get calling the police or mall security faster without needing much prompting. Secondly, you acknowledged their presence and let them know you weren't ignoring them. Thirdly, you raised your voice in a firm commanding fashion telling them to "back off and leave you alone" in a manner to raise awareness of the bystanders creating a group of witnesses who are now focused on who is doing what and who is being unreasonable. The thugs still don't know what your next move is going to be... Are you going to flee? Or are you going to fight? Regardless, there are gonna be witnesses. And they know full well from the very beginning they are in the wrong. They are thugs doing what thugs do and everyone watching knows everyone's role. Thugs = aggressor, You and g/f = Victim and all the store patrons and employee's = WITNESSES.

So, in this case, they did some smack talk and walked away... And thus the game of theirs continues at a later time, in a different place with different players.

The bottom line is, you never know which way things are going to go with gang types and street thugs until it plays out. You must be prepared and assume it is always going to escalate and get worse, so you better prepare for that eventuality no matter how you respond. You do your best to be seen by witnesses as the victim. You back away and at the same time get the attention of others by telling them to leave you alone, you don't want any trouble, you don't have any money and quit bothering you.

I will say, with a group of 4 thugs who appear unarmed and continue to encroach upon you and stepping up the escalation, it's good to have a non-lethal device such as OC spray where you can hose down the entire group and flee. (I bet your G/F was regretting leaving the OC spray at home, and if not, she should be!)

Also, especially in a group of thugs like there were, as soon as one of them pulls out a lethal weapon such as a knife, or club, or chain... I'm drawing down on them and they have about two heartbeats to determine if I fire on the one with the weapon first and then anyone else who fails to flee! I don't care if I"m in a dept. store. I know my shooting skills under stress because I train that way and at 12 - 20 feet or less, I'm shooting, and I'm immediately going to make sure their weapons do not disappear from the scene.

In your situation, I think you handled everything correctly based on the results. You got yourself into a store, you had witnesses, you challenged them by telling them to leave you alone and not bother you and both you and your girlfriend had a surprise waiting for them if they chose to escalate things into a deadly force situation. That's a good job in my book! Congrats! :hand10:

Stay armed and stay safe. And don't forget that OC spray! It can be helpful against a force of multiple thugs where none of them has yet displayed a weapon, yet have you outnumbered.
 
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