So I went Orange at the mall today (critique?)
This is a discussion on So I went Orange at the mall today (critique?) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hi all,
So I am in Dallas to visit some friends/family and their new dog. I went to their Galleria (big mall) with them to ...
August 14th, 2010 08:18 PM
So I went Orange at the mall today (critique?)
So I am in Dallas to visit some friends/family and their new dog. I went to their Galleria (big mall) with them to look around. We were walking around (like anyone would at the mall) and were heading toward the gap. A group of 4 Hispanic males were walking passed us, one tried to cut between my girlfriend and I (walking side by side). So we just avoided him and one of the males "hooted/cat called" at her and said something like "hey baby" and something else that was towards sexual harassment, but we didn't hear it clearly.
My girlfriend obviously was offended and just basically said "excuse me, gross", and we continued walking to the Gap. One of the taller males (maybe 6 foot; I am about 5"8) got upset and started towards our way. As normal, I check my 6 and see him coming towards us while we are in the store.
He starts name calling to me basically trying to start a fight (one other male went with his friend). "What did you say b***", etc." The typical tough guy persona. He is maybe about 20 feet away from me (like at the entrance and we are at the first display how they normally display clothes). So he starts cussing some more trying to provoke us (both my gf and I carry; Beretta px4 sc and Glock 26 respectively). I raise my voice and tell him to back off and I get the attention of a few store workers and other shoppers. He starts cussing and I yell "leave us alone please!" The male begins to call me a little b**** and then "that's what I thought", walks away.
From what I've read on the boards, I did the right thing. But I was so upset and angered that he and his friends would treat women the way they do (especially my gf). As I was playing the situation in my head, if he approached more, how would you guys have handled it?
My thought was...if he approached, legally would I be cleared to "engage"? My number one thought is NO. The mall is crowded and if were to draw and shoot, it may go through him. So the field behind the bg was not clear.
EDC: Sog flash II (3.5" blade) and Glock 26. Gf usually has pepper spray, but left it back at home in our town.
Thoughts? Critique? What would you have done if the bf didn't back off? Although I feel this is a stupid reason to fight over, I was shook up by thinking..."wow...someone is going to get hurt over a stupid sexual remark". My legs were shaking afterwards and I was just so frustrated/PO'd. Sigh of relief though..no one got hurt, no legal troubles. so...I was happy with that.
August 14th, 2010 08:41 PM
The first thing I would've done from the beginning is ignore them, and then report them to the mall security. The moment your girlfriend made the comment it gave them a reason to return and harass you some more. Now, under your circumstances and the way the situation really played out, I would probably have done the same thing, but after the interaction I would have reported these scum bags to security, asap.
Duty, Honor, Country...MEDIC
¡Cuánto duele crecer, cuan hondo es el dolor de alzarse en puntillas y observar con temblores de angustia, esa cosa tremenda, que es la vida del hombre! - René Marqués
August 14th, 2010 09:01 PM
What kind of a shot is your girlfriend?
August 14th, 2010 09:08 PM
I think you reacted appropriately as shooting an unarmed thug, regardless of his actions, is not ok with the law. My suggestion is that you need to carry a less lethal defense weapon such as pepper spray, taser, kubaton, a tactical pen or flashlight or an expandable baton in case you might need it to defend your ground. Additionally, some self defense classes might come in handy such as Krav Maga, Karate or Jiu Jitsu in order to learn some striking techniques such as kicks, punches, elbows and knees as well as some head locks and block moves.
Nonetheless, the best thing to do is ignore such characters and just have the confidence that if "sh$t hits the fan" you have the comfort of being able to unholster your Glock 26 and take care of business.
August 14th, 2010 09:19 PM
Tough situation. I'd like to hear if anyone thinks a cell phone call to 911 would be appropriate as a crime of assault was clearly committed.
Its a shame the dirt were able to just walk away. But, rest assured, they will be behind bars within hours if not days for one thing or another. Anyone who would start trouble in a crowded mall lacks an ability to assess risk and to control themselves.
As for the remarks about non-lethal and self defense, all fine but keep in mind these guys probably all had knives or other forms of blade. And even if they showed them, you really can't defend with a gun in that environment because of the excessive danger to others--for which you would be liable.
This is one of those interesting situations where OC and a Taser might actually come in handy. It might be one of those situations in which displaying might work--- keeping in mind that opens up lots of additional jeopardy but better a charge of intentional display than accidentally drilling the innocent mall walker behind the BG.
I'm glad you posted this scenario (happening). Its one that needs some thinking about.
August 14th, 2010 09:23 PM
Be a good witness.
Sorry, had to get that one out of the way. You handled it well, except if he followed me in the store, I'd yell (like a b****) for Mall Security/cops. Don't hesitate to do so next time. Because next time you may end up getting jumped by all 4 of those guys and would have put you in an extremely uncomfortable situation. I know those guys might have all been unarmed, but the fecal matter could have hit the rotary impeller, and it would have been BEST if mall security was already on their way. Just think to yourself what you would have done if all 4 approached you in a threatening manner. Would you have drawn then? I probably would have, but only after I've made a really good case for doing so (yelling for help/cops, retreating, running away). Once you draw your weapon, you have pretty much put yourself into a shoot-first mode. Legally, you'd probably be in a much better situation if you had to fire against unarmed BGs if you made it pretty clear that you were retreating and they continued to pursue you and that you made an attempt to contact law enforcement. The multitude of folks in the mall would have been witnesses that "four guys were chasing this guy-and-girl couple who were screaming for help, and they kept chasing them and then all I heard were 16 gun shots."
Also, watch your six next time as you EXIT the mall. They could have been waiting to ambush you on the way out.
August 14th, 2010 09:29 PM
Everyone's different and handles things their own way. You did fine. I would probably have stopped, said nothing and just looked at him and waited to see how it played out - but - maybe not, dunno until your really in a situation till you know what you'll do. You think you would handle one way and might but might not if/when it happens.
Anyway, you did fine - glad your okay.
For God, Family and Country!
August 14th, 2010 09:31 PM
If he had advanced well, YOU should have kicked his BUTT as you did well. JMO ; )
A Native Floridian = RARE
IT'S OUR RIGHTS>THEY WANT TO WRONG
August 14th, 2010 09:37 PM
Call security,call the cops.The best thing to say to people that insult is nothing.Guys like these clowns thrive on a response.Since I am in my 50's,the opinion of scum like this matters not.Cuss me,cuss my wife,who cares. They say these things to get a response,to feel you out and pump up their non-existant self esteem. Punks look for a reason,in their mind, and an opening.Now if they want to touch,,
August 14th, 2010 09:37 PM
Originally Posted by hakuthedog
Don't be offended by the statement I'm about to make. What you experienced is empty tool box syndrome. Empty tool box symdrome is what mechanics commonly experience. Basically, a mechanic will use a cresent wrench, when he has a whole tool box full of better tools for the job. You have a whole tool box full of better tools to use, but thought of you firearm (cresent wrench) first. Pull the other tools out of the box. The guy didn't show any weapon, so when he followed you, you reacted by commanding him to stop and leave you alone. That was the right way to address the situation at that point. If he would have tried to get physical, you should have been ready to defend yourself with your other weapons. But continue to command him to back off so that by standers see that you aren't the aggressor. If he escalates the situation, this is where self defence technique comes in. Kick to the shin, jab to the throat, poke in the eye, ect.. (even ultimate fighters quit fighting when poked in the eye) Some of the simplest moves yield the biggest results. Your firearm should only be used if the situation becomes life threatening or with the threat of major injury. Always be aware, but remember that your firearm isn't the only tool you have to take care of a job. You don't use a sledgehammer to drive a finishing nail. It's just a good way to smash your finger. But keep in mind, just because you have a firearm doesn't mean you have to be passive. You still have the right to defend yourself, just to a different degree.
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August 14th, 2010 09:48 PM
Every situation's different. I think you did just fine. You did't take the bait you'd been offered in that sad excuse for a felonious chest-thumping game those idiots wanted to play.
Originally Posted by hakuthedog
A reply such as "excuse me, gross" in response to directed harassment isn't hardly ante into a game of assault and battery. Those thugs thought so, but then most of the trash at the local parks and other spots where such people are easily offended by the "wrong" look or simple statements as your friend gave don't see things rationally. While one can argue nothing should have been said in response, since it's possible it might have been dropped at that point, it's also entirely likely they'd have taken anything as an offense directed at them ... whether that would be ignoring them, attempting to go around them, or responding in any manner at all. They wanted engagement, and you two weren't playing ball. Tough.
You're asking how you did? Think about it. Multiple people on one (or two)? Someone seriously larger and more aggressive than you? With a loved one to worry about? Where the largest and most aggressive was clearly threatening you to fight (or be stomped)? Seems to me that you dealt with their idiocy just right. You ensured you got the attention of people around you (AKA, witnesses), such that if anything did occur you would be SEEN as the good guys. That's crucial. Though, what those idiots didn't realize is that you were all likely being filmed anyway. You also ensured you were completely prepared to resist, by quickly identifying their goal and watching their proximity. As well, you also kept out of "the corner," by not getting stuck where they'd have every advantage. I doubt very seriously any of those thugs would have survived their misguided encounter, or that many of the witnesses would have seen it much different than you explained it above.
You also made it through the situation unscathed, unharmed and better for the encounter. Having an opportunity to think through the minor pros/cons of each step will help you improve for when the next encounter finds you.
I, too, would have reported the thugs. NOBODY is required to suffer through actual assaults and credible threats of physical violence. To a mall of businesses, those thugs represent lost customers, risk of injured customers, risk of lawsuits. There's no way that the mall would tolerate them being there, if they could catch them and remove them from the premises based on legitimate charges. Something to think about for the next time.
August 14th, 2010 09:51 PM
Just as an aside, the bolded is not always entirely accurate. There are far too many "circumstances" that change things when it comes to the law, and especially local laws differing. Disparity of force comes to mind. 2(and one of those 2 possibly being 5' nothin and 100lbs soaking wet) on 4-6 able bodied men is no fun and someone(ie the outnumbered or undersized) could very well die or worse.
Originally Posted by alachner
"My God David, We're a Civilized society."
"Sure, As long as the machines are workin' and you can call 911. But you take those things away, you throw people in the dark, and you scare the crap out of them; no more rules...You'll see how primitive they can get."
-The Mist (2007)
August 14th, 2010 10:01 PM
Untrue, in Oregon and many other states.
I think you reacted appropriately as shooting an unarmed thug, regardless of his actions, is not ok with the law
According to Oregon's statutes on the use of force, the "reasonable man" standard applies to a person's use of the degree of force deemed necessary to stop the threat. Particularly in situations such as multiple-on-one attacks (or at least pack-hunting with taunts and a high likelihood of impending violence), attacks by much larger or more aggressive persons, or when the attacker(s) have weapons of some kind, the principle of "disparity of force" comes into play as well. NOBODY is required to suffer through violence and avoid the use of their effective means of defense merely because the violent attackers don't visually appear to be armed at the outset. Read your state's statutes, as they should clarify the actual legal limitations your community has set on your actions.
August 14th, 2010 10:04 PM
As reasonable and sensible as your post is, there is still a great disparity of force in the described situation. OP could be punched down to the concrete and bashed to a coma in a second or two. H2H probably would not be a winner by itself unless OP is really tough and good. Remember, that disparity of force comes from the numbers, 4 on one, and is as dangerous as knife blades in terms of legally conveying a believable threat of imminent serious harm or death.
Originally Posted by centermass
The really big problem OP has as a defender here is simply that you can't use a firearm in that environment except perhaps by literally shoving the muzzle into the attacker.
I do agree with you (Centermass) that this might be one of those times when screaming loudly might turn things.
As for getting rescued by mall security, ayyyyy. Not at the mall near me. The big boy who has that job can hardly carry himself and would end up on his back, feet in the air, helpless as a turtle on its back. Probably he couldn't dash 100 feet without taking a 5 minute breather. He'd make a good witness to the OPs beat down if he somehow managed to get there in time.
I hope somehow the guy (mall security) doesn't see this, as he is probably a decent enough person, and I don't want to hurt his feelings. No, no rescue coming from mall security. Maybe from a decent bystander or two, one would hope.
August 14th, 2010 10:12 PM
I was thinking the same thing when I read that story.
Originally Posted by CyanLite
-- Luck favors the well prepared.
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