This is a discussion on The Drive Home within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ctsketch Wheres the be a good witness crowd? They're on the Left Coast, in semi-retirement since they filmed the Rodney King event....
I'm so glad HotGuns brought this up... this is a HUGE distinction that far too many people don't understand.Ever heard of the commandment..Thou shalt not kill?
It's an English translation from Hebrew. The Hebrew version says, "Thou shalt not murder". Even the Bible distinguishes the difference between killing and murder and it is quite clear.
NRA Endowment Member
Guess i'm choking him till he stops moving. with his legs hooked he has very little base with which to resist me and he'll be out in seconds.Now that you've got this Tiger by the tail, what do you do if the officer is incapacitated and unable to help you?
What I bring to the table in this situation is the fact that I have been to the 3 day "Street Survival" course put on by Caliber Press for Law Enforcement Officer Survival. In that class I saw many a video tapes of officers being assaulted and even killed at the side of the road being recorded by the officers dash cam. I've also seen many surveillance camera videos of prisoners training to attack officers while incarcerated in gladiator school (prison), as BikerRN so aptly pointed out. I know the savagery of how the attack happens and have an idea of how the situation playing out before me happened.
While I was first reading the initial post I initially thought maybe going hands on and applying the LVNR might be a suitable response. However, based on my prior knowledge and knowing how hard it is to reliably intervene and interrupt a murderous assault on an LEO in progress, I quickly realized that for me, the best response is an immediate lethal force response. The criteria are in place and present for an immediate use of lethal force. Time is of the essence and in fact, the LEO down on the ground may have already sustained permanent crippling injury. In any case, the tenants which authorizes lethal force, ability, opportunity and jeopardy are clearly present.
I have to say that in all likelihood, I am going to employ lethal force before I attempt to call for assistance. I understand that putting out an "officer down" call is going to get all available LEO's in the area heading in this direction, however, in all honesty, the LEO who is down on the ground may not have the required time to spare, even if you can successfully connect with 911 and get it done in less than 30 seconds. Thirty seconds is an eternity when your life is slipping away and I just don't think I'll be trying to call 911 by cell phone or even on the officers cruiser radio before I stop the lethal and deadly attack on the officer.
As clearly stated in the original scenario, I have pulled to a stop and exited my vehicle and as I round the front of my car, the assailant is totally oblivious to my presence. The parameters of the scenario already has me exited from my vehicle so, blowing my car horn is not an option. I'm not going to go back to the drivers side of my car and reach in just to blow the horn. I just don't think any warning challenge is prudent to do so in this situation and it's not required to do by law either. I'm also not going to go hands on against this possible trained gladiator. All I know that his adrenaline is coursing through every vein in his body and he is in a murderous rage bent on destroying the down officer. I'm not going to willingly go against that in H2H regardless of my training and experience in ground fighting, defense and control tactics when clearly this is a lethal force situation. It's not the appropriate tactic to use in this situation. (I'm not saying someone couldn't be successful using H2H tactics or unarmed methods... it's just not appropriate to do so in this situation)
I am going to draw my gun, get as close as needed to ensure I do not miss and I am either going to perform a contact distance shot to the base of the skull or I am going to gain an angle of attack where over penetration will likely not injure the officer and I'm going to shoot the guy as much as it takes to cause cessation of his attack.
Yes, I am generally a "be a good witness" kind of guy. In this case, I have a firm belief I have all the facts needed to intervene legally in this situation. I think the person who randomly threw out the possibility of it being a "bad LEO" or even a "Fake LEO" is sheer nonsense and more than just a little unlikely, it's extremely unlikely. However, if that's the case, I'll still take responsibility for my actions and deal with it in the aftermath.
Again, this is a case clearly of dire circumstances and time is absolutely of the essence. You may already be too late, but I don't believe I have even 15 or 20 seconds to call 911 so I won't be until after the deadly attack has ended. YMMV.
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
I agree, in that I think that "hands on" would be very dangerous undertaking, especially for other than highly trained young bucks. Being neither younger or of larger persuasion, I prefer another method.
With multiple decades of experience using impact weapons, mainly saps and firearms, I have no doubt that I can put him out instantly, if the opportunity presents itself. While I may have a desire to extinguish someone for their actions, if I see a viable alternative, I would be inclined to take it. Lacking the necessary window, would mandate shooting him until he was no longer a threat.
With the time factors involved, I believe that I could terminate the situation, get on the radio to request assistance and medical help and still have an eta of those services that would be less than with a 911 call and the related minutia. Dispatchers are trained to pick up on non sworn personnel on the radio and will clear traffic and expedite whatever is necessary.
"I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."