The Drive Home

This is a discussion on The Drive Home within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ctsketch Wheres the be a good witness crowd? They're on the Left Coast, in semi-retirement since they filmed the Rodney King event....

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Thread: The Drive Home

  1. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Wheres the be a good witness crowd?
    They're on the Left Coast, in semi-retirement since they filmed the Rodney King event.
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  3. #62
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    Ever heard of the commandment..Thou shalt not kill?

    It's an English translation from Hebrew. The Hebrew version says, "Thou shalt not murder". Even the Bible distinguishes the difference between killing and murder and it is quite clear.
    I'm so glad HotGuns brought this up... this is a HUGE distinction that far too many people don't understand.
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  4. #63
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Treo,
    I see some implied sarcasm Hot Guns response, perhaps you don't.
    I have to respond to this

    This is entirely possible and I appologize for misreading the post.

    Again, I have been asked not to participate in threads of this nature but I did need to give that appology

  5. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Kick the BG in the head and shoot him if he gets up


    That's what I was thinking! His head looks like a football and I flet the urge to kick a fieldgoal.
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  6. #65
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Kick the BG in the head and shoot him if he gets up
    My thoughts exactly. Draw your weapon first and have it ready to fire (but finger OFF the trigger). Kick the BG in the head with all your might. If he overcomes that and comes at you, shoot him.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  7. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    Kick the BG in the head and shoot him if he gets up
    Might work for you young bucks but at my age I'd end up on my ass! . . .now the BG has two on the ground to stomp!
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  8. #67
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 3D View Post
    . . .now the BG has two on the ground to stomp!
    True, but in my suggested tactic, one of them has a gun firmly in his hand.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  9. #68
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I have to respond to this

    This is entirely possible and I appologize for misreading the post.

    Again, I have been asked not to participate in threads of this nature but I did need to give that appology
    A gentlemanly gesture and I appreciate it, thank you.

    I am aware, to some extent, of you thoughts on intervention and I am heartened and gratified by your willingness to intervene on the behalf of the officer, as I believe are others.

  10. #69
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Now that you've got this Tiger by the tail, what do you do if the officer is incapacitated and unable to help you?
    Guess i'm choking him till he stops moving. with his legs hooked he has very little base with which to resist me and he'll be out in seconds.
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  11. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    My thoughts exactly. Draw your weapon first and have it ready to fire (but finger OFF the trigger). Kick the BG in the head with all your might. If he overcomes that and comes at you, shoot him.
    You said it better than I did, draw your weapon and if he doesn't know you are there see if you can punt his head 50 yards
    Sometimes I wonder who the old man in the mirror is....

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  12. #71
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    What I bring to the table in this situation is the fact that I have been to the 3 day "Street Survival" course put on by Caliber Press for Law Enforcement Officer Survival. In that class I saw many a video tapes of officers being assaulted and even killed at the side of the road being recorded by the officers dash cam. I've also seen many surveillance camera videos of prisoners training to attack officers while incarcerated in gladiator school (prison), as BikerRN so aptly pointed out. I know the savagery of how the attack happens and have an idea of how the situation playing out before me happened.

    While I was first reading the initial post I initially thought maybe going hands on and applying the LVNR might be a suitable response. However, based on my prior knowledge and knowing how hard it is to reliably intervene and interrupt a murderous assault on an LEO in progress, I quickly realized that for me, the best response is an immediate lethal force response. The criteria are in place and present for an immediate use of lethal force. Time is of the essence and in fact, the LEO down on the ground may have already sustained permanent crippling injury. In any case, the tenants which authorizes lethal force, ability, opportunity and jeopardy are clearly present.

    I have to say that in all likelihood, I am going to employ lethal force before I attempt to call for assistance. I understand that putting out an "officer down" call is going to get all available LEO's in the area heading in this direction, however, in all honesty, the LEO who is down on the ground may not have the required time to spare, even if you can successfully connect with 911 and get it done in less than 30 seconds. Thirty seconds is an eternity when your life is slipping away and I just don't think I'll be trying to call 911 by cell phone or even on the officers cruiser radio before I stop the lethal and deadly attack on the officer.

    As clearly stated in the original scenario, I have pulled to a stop and exited my vehicle and as I round the front of my car, the assailant is totally oblivious to my presence. The parameters of the scenario already has me exited from my vehicle so, blowing my car horn is not an option. I'm not going to go back to the drivers side of my car and reach in just to blow the horn. I just don't think any warning challenge is prudent to do so in this situation and it's not required to do by law either. I'm also not going to go hands on against this possible trained gladiator. All I know that his adrenaline is coursing through every vein in his body and he is in a murderous rage bent on destroying the down officer. I'm not going to willingly go against that in H2H regardless of my training and experience in ground fighting, defense and control tactics when clearly this is a lethal force situation. It's not the appropriate tactic to use in this situation. (I'm not saying someone couldn't be successful using H2H tactics or unarmed methods... it's just not appropriate to do so in this situation)

    I am going to draw my gun, get as close as needed to ensure I do not miss and I am either going to perform a contact distance shot to the base of the skull or I am going to gain an angle of attack where over penetration will likely not injure the officer and I'm going to shoot the guy as much as it takes to cause cessation of his attack.

    Yes, I am generally a "be a good witness" kind of guy. In this case, I have a firm belief I have all the facts needed to intervene legally in this situation. I think the person who randomly threw out the possibility of it being a "bad LEO" or even a "Fake LEO" is sheer nonsense and more than just a little unlikely, it's extremely unlikely. However, if that's the case, I'll still take responsibility for my actions and deal with it in the aftermath.

    Again, this is a case clearly of dire circumstances and time is absolutely of the essence. You may already be too late, but I don't believe I have even 15 or 20 seconds to call 911 so I won't be until after the deadly attack has ended. YMMV.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  13. #72
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bark'n View Post
    I think the person who randomly threw out the possibility of it being a "bad LEO" or even a "Fake LEO" is sheer nonsense and more than just a little unlikely, it's extremely unlikely. However, if that's the case, I'll still take responsibility for my actions and deal with it in the aftermath.
    Exactly. Even on the 0.000045718% chance that it's an imposter, I find it hard to believe that your actions wouldn't pass any "reasonable man" standards anywhere.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  14. #73
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    I agree, in that I think that "hands on" would be very dangerous undertaking, especially for other than highly trained young bucks. Being neither younger or of larger persuasion, I prefer another method.
    With multiple decades of experience using impact weapons, mainly saps and firearms, I have no doubt that I can put him out instantly, if the opportunity presents itself. While I may have a desire to extinguish someone for their actions, if I see a viable alternative, I would be inclined to take it. Lacking the necessary window, would mandate shooting him until he was no longer a threat.

    With the time factors involved, I believe that I could terminate the situation, get on the radio to request assistance and medical help and still have an eta of those services that would be less than with a 911 call and the related minutia. Dispatchers are trained to pick up on non sworn personnel on the radio and will clear traffic and expedite whatever is necessary.

  15. #74
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpringerXD View Post
    Exactly. Even on the 0.000045718% chance that it's an imposter, I find it hard to believe that your actions wouldn't pass any "reasonable man" standards anywhere.
    ahem..I think I also added that is was and extremely extremely minute possibility. and also agreed with the poster who said that it would def. pass the reasonable man standard :p
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  16. #75
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    ahem..I think I also added that is was and extremely extremely minute possibility. and also agreed with the poster who said that it would def. pass the reasonable man standard :p


    I don't think anyone is picking on you, CT. I know I'm not. I just think that Bark'n was basically saying that the situation is clear cut enough to warrant deadly force.

    But I also agree with your premise that things aren't always as they seem.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

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