The Drive Home

This is a discussion on The Drive Home within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I guess if we really tried hard, anything has some kind of probability....some are just too small to measure...

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Thread: The Drive Home

  1. #76
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I guess if we really tried hard, anything has some kind of probability....some are just too small to measure
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  3. #77
    VIP Member Array jbum's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HotGuns View Post
    Bang Bang Bang...Bang Bang.

    I feared for his life. The jerk went for the officers gun. I had no choice. I hated to do it...

  4. #78
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    Guess i'm choking him till he stops moving. with his legs hooked he has very little base with which to resist me and he'll be out in seconds.
    Don't be to sure about that.

    Have you done any "3 Minute Drills"? That's only an eternity. Choke holds and leg wraps, like bullets can fail at the worst possible time. If there was ever a clear cut case of deadly force being appropriate in defense of an unknown third party, this is it for me.

    You have a reasonable expectation that this is in fact an identified good guy being lethally assaulted. What more do you need? For those that say they would take the time to summon help via 911, I can tell you from personal expirience that sometimes that's not possible or realistic. The threat needs to be stopped RIGHT NOW! The worst night of my life involved things happening so fast that I didn't have time to summon help. I dropped the radio mic and had the shotgun bead super-imposed on the driver's head, with my finger taking slack out of the trigger before I was aware of it. The funny thing is, it was like slow motion to me.

    As Hot Guns noted, "do something, but ACT!" I have no desire to go hands on. If the officer is incapacitated what good am I to him if I become incapacitated too? Knowing the skill and tactics, as well as the savagery of the modern felon makes me skip the preliminaries in this case and go right to lethal force. I have no desire or interest in "fighting fair". My only goal is to see that myself and those that I am protecting go home alive. The rest is just BS.

    "Do what you need to do to go home alive."

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  5. #79
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Don't be to sure about that.

    Have you done any "3 Minute Drills"? That's only an eternity. Choke holds and leg wraps, like bullets can fail at the worst possible time. If there was ever a clear cut case of deadly force being appropriate in defense of an unknown third party, this is it for me.

    You have a reasonable expectation that this is in fact an identified good guy being lethally assaulted. What more do you need? For those that say they would take the time to summon help via 911, I can tell you from personal expirience that sometimes that's not possible or realistic. The threat needs to be stopped RIGHT NOW! The worst night of my life involved things happening so fast that I didn't have time to summon help. I dropped the radio mic and had the shotgun bead super-imposed on the driver's head, with my finger taking slack out of the trigger before I was aware of it. The funny thing is, it was like slow motion to me.

    As Hot Guns noted, "do something, but ACT!" I have no desire to go hands on. If the officer is incapacitated what good am I to him if I become incapacitated too? Knowing the skill and tactics, as well as the savagery of the modern felon makes me skip the preliminaries in this case and go right to lethal force. I have no desire or interest in "fighting fair". My only goal is to see that myself and those that I am protecting go home alive. The rest is just BS.

    "Do what you need to do to go home alive."

    Biker
    I agree, going hands on can get messy, you don't know how strong this guy is, what skill he has, or how hopped up on drugs he is. The fact he took on a trained officer says something too. Personally I am no weakling either and I also have years of h2h training (and continue to train diligently) but I still don't want to get into a h2h fight.

    My initial response to the thread was call for help and put a bullet in the BG if he didn't stop when I shouted. (which even may take too much time). Another poster suggested kneeing the BG in the head and that is when I commented that if I was crazy enough to go hands on I would at least want to do something where I have more control and more ability to incapacitate.
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  6. #80
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Some of the comments here make me very proud to be a member of the martial arts community. Like Emperor Han says in Enter the Dragon, "we forge our bodies in the fire of our will." We step aside for no man, and we do not quake in fear at the threat of attack from some prison gladiator or anybody else. Our skills are either up to the task, or they fail us.

    Also, we should always have access to secondary weapons beyond the firearm. My ASP Street Defender is both a CS tool and a kubotan. A hard strike with the end of it would be a clock-cleaner. In this scenario, I might grab my "truck knife" - a 6" assisted opening stiletto. The pommel of the knife can deliver a very strong blow - and still be out of lethal territory.

    I am going to draw my gun, get as close as needed to ensure I do not miss and I am either going to perform a contact distance shot to the base of the skull or I am going to gain an angle of attack
    What I read from this is "I love law enforcement and I would do anything to help and protect them." It's a good thought and one I agree with. Per the Temple story linked earlier, the civilian who rendered aid faced some pretty heavy legal issues in the aftermath. It's good to have alternatives to "bullet in the brain" and a flying knee, a naked choke-out, a neck wrench, or a simple boot to the head have all been forwarded here as possibilities.

    None of these suggestions preclude "bullet to the head." You run up, and you do a heel kick to the BG's head. If you know your medicine, then you know where to put that kick: Occipital or temporal lobe. Whatever attack is happening will stop and you'll have the BG's attention. Draw and take it from there. He's on the ground. You're standing. Be ready and play it by ear.

    The "run up and execute the perp" school really sounds masculine and effective, and it has the ring of authority that most of us like to hear. Be deliberate, show no mercy and kill in cold blood. That's great for chatting and discussion, but in real life I would hope that most of us have the sense to try anything else first. Even in the Temple case, the shooter fired two warning shots. He ordered the perp verbally. Only then did he proceed.

    Yes, the officer is needing aid. He also has the weight of the entire judicial system protecting him. You can wind up being the target of not only the perp's relatives, but also his community, and you have no protection except what you can afford out of pocket. So it makes sense to get the guy off without killing him if you can. In the Temple case, that wasn't an option and he played it the best he could.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  7. #81
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I agree, in that I think that "hands on" would be very dangerous undertaking, especially for other than highly trained young bucks. Being neither younger or of larger persuasion, I prefer another method.
    With multiple decades of experience using impact weapons, mainly saps and firearms, I have no doubt that I can put him out instantly, if the opportunity presents itself. While I may have a desire to extinguish someone for their actions, if I see a viable alternative, I would be inclined to take it. Lacking the necessary window, would mandate shooting him until he was no longer a threat.

    With the time factors involved, I believe that I could terminate the situation, get on the radio to request assistance and medical help and still have an eta of those services that would be less than with a 911 call and the related minutia. Dispatchers are trained to pick up on non sworn personnel on the radio and will clear traffic and expedite whatever is necessary.
    My 911 call after officer down, location, was throw the open cell on the seat and do what I gotta do... Now, I don't know if I can subdue this guy with an impact weapon... I don't have one handy anyway... Especially if the guy is like the additionally posted auto zone example... or any where near it... I'm going to shoot... I'm going to shoot to kill... I'm going to repeat as necessary. For me, there is no viable alternative... If I was unheard, I suppose a tire iron to the head mighy work.. but each blow to the LEOs head is life threatening (recent cop assault in CR is prime example, massive brain injury... works part time "filing") and even with full resistance that's ~1.5 seconds per smash into the concrete...... I don't see any way around shooting...
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
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    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  8. #82
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I have no problem with that.

    I believe that there is a good possibility that I can put the perp down as fast or faster pistol whipping him than shooting him, barring a good headshot. Especially if he is like the dude in the article.

  9. #83
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    To me it depends on how I arrive on the scene. If I was there during the initial fight then I'd call 911 just to get help/backup for the officer. Then exit my car and have my weapon ready. If the officer takes more beating and the perp can't be subdued then I'd intervene and make commands from a safe distance. If I'm in fear of my life after this point then it's self defense time.
    If I arrive and the officer is already on the ground getting the hell beat out of him I would automatically be in fear of his life and spring into action.......especially if the perp is reaching for the LEO's service pistol. I'm not a super hero but as a good citizen I would do my best to minimize injury to the officer or even death. Sitting there and doing nothing is something I could not and will not do.

  10. #84
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    Having a brother in law inforcement I'd try not to freak, and as fast as I could line up in front of the BG checking backstop making one verbal command if nothing ? BangBang dial 911.

  11. #85
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    As I see it, it's all about options and what is the most appropriate option for a given situation.

    In this situation, we have a clear situation where lethal force is authorized. Make no mistake about it... The officer is down on the ground fighting for his life! We don't know how long he's been fighting like that and as I said before, may have already sustained permanent and crippling injuries. The assault is brutal and ongoing. The assailant has the upper hand and is physically on top of the downed officer and beating him into oblivion. Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy has clearly been established and is presently underway and unabated.

    As I pointed out earlier, the lateral vascular neck restraint applied to level 3 application will render the person unconscious in 3-5 seconds. That's a fact! The positioning of the attacker on top of the downed LEO with his back to you and unaware of your presence is just about the easiest and best presentation a trained person could ask for. Just slip up behind him, apply it and you own him. It's a 16 hour certification course just to learn how to apply that one single technique correctly. It is the safest "choke hold" type technique to apply and in the greater than 35 years since Jim Lindell of KCPD fame developed it, there has never been a death or serious injury attributed to it if applied correctly. I know... I participated in the medical study group who evaluated it several years back.

    However in this situation, I don't believe it is an appropriate technique to use. It is a less-lethal way of gaining control and compliance with a suspect where the force continuum has not yet reached the level where deadly force is authorized as is clearly the case in this situation.

    Likewise, coming up and "cold-cocking" him in the back of the head with a shovel, flashlight, impact weapon could also be effective. However the risk of using an impact weapon on the back of anyone's head is considered a deadly force blow which may kill the guy. So, whether the guy survives, in the eye of the law, you are still applying lethal force, but is that the best option in this situation? I think NO as there are still too many variables where things could go wrong.

    Also using other H2H options where you are clearly in a deadly force situation is the last thing you choose to do when your gun fails and all else goes to hell... It's not usually the first choice of action to try when faced with stopping a lethal force encounter.

    Now I'm sure as hell not anxious to punch some guy's ticket and snuff out a life. In fact it's the last thing I want to do. However, once you see the situation for what it is and as I first stated above: "Make no mistake about it... The officer is down on the ground fighting for his life! We don't know how long he's been fighting like that and may have already sustained permanent and crippling injuries. The assault is brutal and ongoing. The assailant has the upper hand and is physically on top of the downed officer and beating him into oblivion. Ability, Opportunity and Jeopardy has clearly been established and is presently underway and unabated." I believe, and again, this is my opinion and my solution, that the best way to stop this murder from being completed is to use the gun and use a deadly force conflict resolution. It is the most expedient and appropriate thing to do in an attempt to save this officers life.

    Again, this is merely my 0.02 cents and YMMV.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  12. #86
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    A good discussion.
    I agree that there is ample justification for the employment of lethal force. I also am not overly concerned it the prep survives from gun shots or otherwise.
    The only shot(s) with anything near a guarantee of an immediate stop would be head shot(s).
    With him pummeling the officer and his head moving around, I am not convinced that the required head shot would be any quicker, easier or more effective than busting him behind the ear and it creates less possible risk to the officer. JMO

  13. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    A good discussion.
    I agree that there is ample justification for the employment of lethal force. I also am not overly concerned it the prep survives from gun shots or otherwise.
    The only shot(s) with anything near a guarantee of an immediate stop would be head shot(s).
    With him pummeling the officer and his head moving around, I am not convinced that the required head shot would be any quicker, easier or more effective than busting him behind the ear and it creates less possible risk to the officer. JMO
    Good point and a valid concern... And if I had a baseball bat or a jack handle accessible in my car, I may walk up and knock his head off like it was sitting on a T-Ball stand. Deadly force is deadly force and there would be little doubt what the end result would be if I took a swing like that.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  14. #88
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    You don't know this guy. He might be all jacked up on PCP. There is no safe way to fight with a guy on wet. OC will NOT work on them, a taser might work if you have great dart spread, but it might not. I have only fought guys on PCP when there were five of us and one of him, and I can tell you it took everything we had. The point is, the Officer is in mortal danger. Getting youself hurt or killed is not going to help him. I am going to make sure I have a clear shot, and then I am shooting until I need to reload. Then I am going to reload, call for help and render first aid.

  15. #89
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    Ummmm, Mr. Bark'n sir . . may I respectfully point to your signature quotation to sum this up. "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, will prey on those of us who without one, would surely perish."

    This is not a 'fight', there is no 'posturing' here. This policemans life is on the line NOW. Shoot until threat ceases.
    "It is easier to resist at the beginning than at the end"____Leonardo da Vinci 1452-1519

  16. #90
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    I would help the downed officer, no questions asked. I would make one verbal command if he did not comply, he is dead. Sorry about your luck BG.

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