The Drive Home

This is a discussion on The Drive Home within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; As I roll up I'll press my OnStar emergency button, if they answer before I stop I'll tell them officer down, send the cavalry, otherwise ...

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Thread: The Drive Home

  1. #91
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    As I roll up I'll press my OnStar emergency button, if they answer before I stop I'll tell them officer down, send the cavalry, otherwise it will be an open line and they should dispatch help when there is no answer.

    I'm likely not to go hand to hand, this person just overpowered a uniformed officer and trained or not I'm not all that big and I have other tools at my disposal. My gut says to draw with my right hand, OC in my left hand and order him off the officer and down on the ground. (I may not be big but you don't want to be on the business end of my mean, loud voice). If he doesn't comply he'll get a full dose of OC. It may affect the officer but he's likely out of the fight already. I'm just hoping to get the guy to stop long enough for the officer to hopefully retreat. If he still doesn't comply he'll get one more command "stop or I'll shoot" and then I'll let my Sig do any further talking, all from a safe angle to not risk injuring the officer. Once the threat is stopped I'll get of the officers radio if it's safe to do so and call in officer down, shots fired, assuming he hasn't already done so. Then I'll tend to any injuries the officer has until the paramedics arrive.

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  3. #92
    Senior Member Array ep1953's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Treo View Post
    I'm sorry but I have to disagree W/ this post. This may indeed be what's neccessary to aid the officer but the way it's written here sounds like murder to me.
    As we say here in TN, "He needed killin".

  4. #93
    Distinguished Member Array SpringerXD's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdmorgan View Post
    You don't know this guy. He might be all jacked up on PCP.
    Good point. "Angel Dust" is no laughing matter, as there are numerous documented cases of people breaking limbs while on it and not even knowing it until the next day.

    I will say, though, it seems to me that on the off chance you wound up in a courtroom, ANY action you took before shooting him would work in your favor in the eyes of a jury. It would show that you tried a non-lethal solution first that just didn't work. Then there's no way that a slick prosecutor could paint you as a "cowboy who was itching to shoot somebody."

    Granted, all of that is WAY secondary to the fact that there's a police officer on the ground in the process of being murdered, but still something to consider.
    "I practice the ancient art of Klik Pao."

    -miklcolt45

  5. #94
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
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    Officer down

    There problems with anything but a close range head. Any non lethal contact has the possibility of the BG gaining physical control. Mo way to assure a knee, shovel, or choke incapacitates him - and no way to assure BG doesn't grab officer's weapon in the process. Intervention needs to assure the desired result.
    If BGs on top of the officer, getting a good angle at the head is going to be difficult - the shot made even more difficult because of darkness. COM doesn't assure the fight's stopping, and it doesn't take long for the BG to close on you. He may die, but not before he kills you.
    I keep a DPMS 308 with TAP loads in the trunk. I'd take a head shot from the side (officers head not in the background) at 20 feet. If he doesn't die instantly, he's too far for him to close on me before I fire several more rounds. I don't see any amount of PCP withstanding this. I'm not comfortable with a contact head shot with a hand gun. I can't be sure he doesn't sense me behind him, and I don't want to fight for my weapon.

  6. #95
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    Treo, I have to agree with Hot Guns on this, normally witness and call 911 is ok, this is different, you have a confirmed BG beating an officer of the law senseless, especially if there is a marked car on scene with cherries and berries going, if that guy gets the officers gun, its over, I'm taking him out first chance I get, LEO's life vs. BG's life, BG is dying on that day, I fully expect a LEO to come to my aid in that way if he sees me getting beaten senseless, I am sure any LEO at the point of being beaten relentlessly would back me and say it was justified, not only that but his buddies would probably prefer to bury a scumbag than a brother. Repeted doses of lead are called for
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  7. #96
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    What I would do: Get to just out of arm's reach, low and behind. Vent the cranium or lateral torso, or both.

    What I would want to do if I had the perfect setup, or were in a movie, just cause it would be more satisfying: Knife to the kidney (this is standard practice before slicing the throat in the classic military 'sneak up behind and kill' scenario to stun and immobilize the adversary), kick the crotch (for kidney pain relief / nah I just want to crack his eggs), OC to the face, boot to the face. Ah if only I carried an aluminum bat in my car...

    Discussion:

    1. The knife is generally a bad idea; very few claims of lawful defense with a knife get a fair day in court. But this just might be one of them. The knife can be as quickly debilitating as the gun with much less danger to the LEO, if employed correctly. You have to be quick and sneaky, and hit the right spot. Once the strike is made, you can always toss it to prevent the BG from getting it.

    2. Odds are the LEO is wearing a vest. This is a dice roll I would hate to bet on, but if no other angle presents itself, as a last ditch option use the LEO's torso as your backstop. If your ammo overpenetrates, but contacts the vest, that's basically a win as the reduced velocity will not penetrate the vest. Be aware that some vests do not adequately cover the abdomen or lateral chest.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  8. #97
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    paramedic, im sure you are aware that most LEO's would not be wearing a trauma plate, the round can still stop the heart and kill them, im sorry, but that point about using the LEO's torso as a backstop is completely reckless and dangerous. I will not "roll the dice" with the life of a LEO, (edit. I won't do it with anyone else either, just that the person in this instance is a LEO) I hope to God that you never come upon me in that situation and decide, well he is probably wearing a vest, so ill just shoot the bg and use me as a backstop. Not to mention the added velocity of a shot from a 2-3 foot away shot can very well penetrate a level II vest, even through a target, not to mention the fact that the round could hit a rib or a bone in the BG and then strike the LEO, then again thats possible anyway. I do agree with the possibility of using a knife if you are trained, but if thats the case, why not just a few debilitating cuts to the vital tendons?
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  9. #98
    Member Array ozzyzig87's Avatar
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    The officer is trained in combat so if the trained officer got taken down, I probably wouldnt stand a chance being an average joe with no training. I'mn a volunteer fireman so I have all kind of bells whistles light and sirens on my truck. I would flip everything on in the hopes that the BG thinks backup has arrived? Weapon drawn and already on my radio calling for help. Maybe blurt something over my loud speaker "put your hands up and step away from the officer" ? maybe lol
    "Molon Labe"

  10. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    paramedic, ...I hope to God that you never come upon me in that situation and decide, well he is probably wearing a vest, so ill just shoot the bg and use me as a backstop.
    Chris, I believe he just threw those actions out as further discussion points to get peoples opinions. Not that he would do any of those.

    He already said in the first sentence what he would do, which is: "What I would do: Get to just out of arm's reach, low and behind. Vent the cranium or lateral torso, or both."

    Stating that he'd take a cranial shot from low and behind the aggressor would put the officer out of the path of the bullet which would likely exit out the top of the felon's head or forehead at about the hairline traveling in an upward trajectory.

    His other option would be a shot to the lateral torso, again putting the officer out of the path of the bullet should it exit the felon's body. Hopefully that shot would hit both lungs plus the heart on the way out, again in a safe path to miss the downed officer.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  11. #100
    Member Array sandman1212's Avatar
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    I would give one warning...then the BG would get a deadly case of lead poisening! If the LEO is in that kind of predicament, there is no time for formalities.
    KAHR CW45, RIA 1911 Officer, S&W Sigma 9MM, Savage 1907 .32cal(BUG)

  12. #101
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    The "run up and execute the perp" school really sounds masculine and effective, and it has the ring of authority that most of us like to hear.
    Actually, Shockwave, I think that this response acknowledges the individual's limitations and is perfectly reasonable. It's those who think that because they take martial arts training they could dispatch this large, adrenalin-fueled, enraged man (who is also well trained) hand to hand that sound like they're spouting pure bravado and machismo. "I could kick him in the head because I take {insert favorite martial art here}," sounds like playground bragging not a reasonable response. You'd be hard pressed to find a police officer willing to dive into that fray hand to hand. That's because their knowledge is built from real world experience, not in-class sparring.

    So you decide that you're going to kick the guy in the head instead of shoot:
    You rush in to make your strike, and the man catches a glimpse of you out of the corner of his eye. He deflects the kick and throws you off balance taking you to the ground. Congratulations, you die today.

    Having a gun in your hand won't save you either. Have you ever been slammed to the pavement (not a training mat, the pavement)? Trust me, you're probably not keeping hold of that gun and this man has already demonstrated that he can keep a person from a gun in close quarters. As I said, you die today.

    If you want to stop the assault on this officer and you have a gun available, I think that the only reasonable option in the given scenario is to take careful aim and fire.
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

  13. #102
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Now, I don't know if I can subdue this guy with an impact weapon... I don't have one handy anyway... Especially if the guy is like the additionally posted auto zone example... or any where near it... I'm going to shoot.
    Per the above, if you are carrying a firearm, then you do have an impact weapon - the handful of metal of in your hand. Whack the dude upside the head with it. You can always shoot if needed but if some attitudinal adjustment - especially with a snubbie - gets the job done, a lot less of the judicial machinery will get involved with you.

    There's been some mention of the fact that since the officer is down and in a defensive position, the BG must be some kind of super-maniac. Maybe, but maybe not. During a routine stop, an officer will be cautious, but if the individual is compliant, the officer can drop his guard, especially while he's filling out a ticket or something. The perp might have sucker punched him by surprise, gotten lucky in some way.

    There's been mention that he might be jacked up on PCP or similar. Yes, but he might not be. Y'know, in the self-defense world, there's been a lot of talk about MMA and UFC, and the general consensus is that you don't want to go to the ground, ever. The BG might have friends around and the last place you want to be is wrestling around on the ground because somebody can come up and kick you in the head. Well that's exactly the situation here, except that you're the guy ready to apply the shoe leather or side of a gun, etc. Read the situation out and don't be trigger-happy unless there's no choice.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  14. #103
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    you could also just walk up to him and shoot out his hip from as close a range as you're proposing to execute him .... trust me, when even a .45 acp ball round goes through the hip joint, he's stopping whatever he's doing. that response should satisfy a lot of people -- you're using your available weapon to stop the threat, you're not executing the BG, you're doing something other than nothing, you're not just blowing your horn ..... that could be an effective solution.

    if you don't think this would work, just sit back and consider how it might feel to have your hip joint shattered by a .45.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  15. #104
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    This sounds very much like the "why didn't you just shoot him in the shoulder" question that's thrown about after self-defense shootings.

    OK, so you shoot at his hip and he shifts right as you take the shot. You miss and hit him in the gluteus muscle instead of the hip joint. That's not even remotely debilitating and in his adrenalin-fueled rage he may not even notice. Now what? Keep shooting for his hip until you get it?

    That's why you don't go for the head shot either. It's a small target that moves around a lot.

    Center of mass, center of mass, center of mass.
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

  16. #105
    Senior Member Array CowboyColby's Avatar
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    Lots of good ideas here great thread. Thank you OP. I think we are all in agreeance that something must be done now for sake of the LEO. My reasoning for not shooting first is for two reasons; one I don't the distance I will be away from the fight and don't want to chance hitting the officer with over penetration or that this guy moves at the right/wrong time two I don't want to shoot anybody unless I absolutely have to. Now I may be more apt to shoot sooner if the bg has a weapon or is about to have the officers firearm or if it looks like he is about to unleash a devastating blow on the leo for instance the leo's no longer got his hands up defending his face. Keep it up i'm really enjoying peoples ideas

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