The Drive Home - Page 8

The Drive Home

This is a discussion on The Drive Home within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I see your point gruntingfrog and certainly agree with it -- that's another reason why forums like this are invaluable to those of us that ...

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Thread: The Drive Home

  1. #106
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    I see your point gruntingfrog and certainly agree with it -- that's another reason why forums like this are invaluable to those of us that choose to defend rather than run and hide, look at all the different scenarios and possibilities we've unearthed, kicked around, debated, and hopefully all have learned from. Certainly none of us have actually gone through this, thankfully, but look at what we can learn by kicking around the possibilities.

    Personally, I'd probably go for the hip given these circumstances: if I can get that close, that I can put my weapon right up on his hip and pull the trigger, then I don't have to execute him. I could do the same in the shoulder, though the BG body mass at that point is less than it is at the hip, especially if I can go in from the side of the hip, and the possibility of him moving or shifting is the same for all scenario's, head, hip, shoulder, what have you.

    But I do know this: the hip is in one of the largest body mass locations on the body, and that joint is relatively close to the surface of the body, and I guarantee taking it out I will take that BG down. So I guess this would just be my choice, given all of the circumstances above.

    But that's just my opinion.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18


  2. #107
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    I see your point gruntingfrog and certainly agree with it -- that's another reason why forums like this are invaluable to those of us that choose to defend rather than run and hide, look at all the different scenarios and possibilities we've unearthed, kicked around, debated, and hopefully all have learned from. Certainly none of us have actually gone through this, thankfully, but look at what we can learn by kicking around the possibilities.

    Personally, I'd probably go for the hip given these circumstances: if I can get that close, that I can put my weapon right up on his hip and pull the trigger, then I don't have to execute him.
    But that's just my opinion.
    No offense intended, but it sounds to me like you haven't come to terms with being able to kill another human being. Until you do I would strongly encourage you to not carry a gun and use other protective measures to defend yourself and others.

    "Some people just need killing", and this thread has all the legal elements of a justified shoot in my opinion. While I don't wish to kill, I do want to stop, and the only guarantee of a stop is an immediate cessation of respirations by shutting down the central nervous system. In short, your bullet recipient is dead.

    I would encourage you to think long and hard about what it means to take another human life. Lots of people are incapable of killing. Nothing wrong with that, that's just the way it is.

    Biker

  3. #108
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    No offense taken, but I spent 25+ years in the US Military and came to terms with that possibility almost 35 years ago. I've had no issues with it since then, either. And really, I mean this, no offense taken -- I appreciate your voicing this, I honestly do.

    But .... I'd like to see this guy suffer physically, then have to suffer the consequences of his actions also. So, if I don't have to kill him, if I can just maim him for life and then watch him squirm, I'm okay with that.

    EDIT: I should add that I've read my NIV, and I do understand the difference between killing and murder also.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  4. #109
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    But .... I'd like to see this guy suffer physically, then have to suffer the consequences of his actions also. So, if I don't have to kill him, if I can just maim him for life and then watch him squirm, I'm okay with that.
    While I understand the sentiment, it usually doesn't work out that way.

    Yes, the felon will suffer, but you will suffer more in all liklihood. I hope you have a big war chest full of money, because if you are ever involved in something like the described scenario you will most likely need it. The goal is to STOP, not inflict pain, kill, or render punishment. In this case the stop would neccessitate the death of the felon to have any realistic outcome of survivability for the officer and yourself, IMO.

    Also, why would you want to burden the taxpayers with another invalid felon? You do realize that the taxpayers are responsible for their medical care don't you? If I could stop the felon by yelling at him, I would. This situation has moved far beyond any realistic expectation of that happening. Thus I am looking for the quickest and surest way of ending the assault.

    Your time in the military, thank you for your service, does not mean that you have fired a shot in anger. That is neither here nor there, IMO. I think, and again this is just an uninformed opinion based upon what I've read, you may be harboring a subconcious reticence to killing another human being. There is a time and place for everything, and sometimes it is time to do things we don't like to think or talk about, let alone do.

    Take care, stay safe, and please take this post in the spirit in which it was intended.

    Biker

  5. #110
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    You know what, those are both good points.

    Head shot it is.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  6. #111
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    A lot of great responses, both in actions and thinking. This was what I hoped for in posting the thread and I thank all those who have responded.

    On suggested actions:
    This is straight up the middle so should not be interpreted as being pointed in any particular direction. Usually a suggested course of action will be based on the various attributes of the person suggesting it in addition to the circumstances involved. Hazards of that particular course of action are frequently pointed out by others. This is as it should be, so that course of action can be critically assessed. That assessment is usually based on the attributes of the assessor. What must be kept in mind is the enormous variation in attributes and experience of a given cross section of people. I have seen people do things that I thought near impossible and that I damn sure couldn't do myself. With that in mind, it is wise to evaluate a course of action through ones own eyes, but unfair to assess or reject the other persons ability to perform that action, sight unseen.

    The feelings of LE and non LE regarding nonsworn intervention has had some exposure and I hope provided some clarification on the feelings of both parties. The receptiveness/gratitude of LE and the willingness of nonsworn to assist, are both good things.

    Please contiue.........

  7. #112
    Ex Member Array Treo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    But .... I'd like to see this guy suffer physically, then have to suffer the consequences of his actions also. So, if I don't have to kill him, if I can just maim him for life and then watch him squirm, I'm okay with that.
    Carrrying a firearm does not make us the judge and jury. I carry a firearm for defense of myself or my family when all other options have failed. Because of the above post the possibilty now exists that if you are ever in an iffy SD incident you may well hear those words again. Read to a jury and used to show that you are a blood thirsty vigilante who is just looking for an excuse to muder (ratsach, RAW tsakh' ; a primary root ; properly. to dash in pieces , ie to kill (a human being) espec. to murder - put to death ,kill, slay, murder Strong's Exhaustive Concordance of the (King James) Bible. James Strong Henderson publishing) a bad guy


    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    EDIT: I should add that I've read my NIV, and I do understand the difference between killing and murder also.
    You might want to try an NKJV

  8. #113
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    ... if I can get that close, that I can put my weapon right up on his hip and pull the trigger...
    I see where you're going, but I personally wouldn't want to get that close. Willingly putting yourself close enough to put your gun right up against any part of his body is close enough to be quickly disarmed and overwhelmed. I wouldn't get within ten feet if I had a gun. I'd just position myself to minimize the likelihood of hitting the officer and shoot until the assault stops.

    I have to agree with Biker, although I don't think you necessarily have a problem with the idea of taking a life. I think you may be hung up on the fact that a bullet to the back of the head does seem like an execution and not an engagement. I agree. In most situations, that equates to an execution. Given the gravity of this situation, I don't think so although I do think (for the reasons I gave before) that center of mass is more appropriate.
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

  9. #114
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    The cemeteries are full of people who failed to recognize the fact that they were in the midst of a deadly threat and opted to try something less effective in dealing with that deadly threat.

    I don't intend to be one of those people, and I sure as hell am not going to stand around having a moral dilemma with myself when a cop is down on the ground and likely seconds away from dying.

    It's quite clear, at least to me, that a few people posting either have not come to terms with the thought of having to actually use that gun they carry with them. Not really! They strap on the gun, walk out of the house and the thought of actually using it still remains just some abstract thought in the back of their head. They keep telling them self, "I'll never need it," or any other of a number of rationalizations. Or, they are not familiar enough with what the force continuum is, and what exactly constitutes a deadly threat, and fail to recognize it when it's staring them right in the face. Another fact is that most people have never seen a murder playing out right before their eyes. Especially when the murderer is not armed with a weapon other than pure rage and their fists and body mass.

    Some people clearly don't see this as a deadly situation because the attacker is way up in the lethal force zone of the force continuum and they are trying to respond with something clear down at the other end of the spectrum. Or they admit it's a deadly force situation and the officer is likely near death, but they still don't want to use the appropriate level of force in dealing with it, hoping some less lethal means will stop it in time to save the officers life. Again, the thought of actually employing lethal force when it is clearly justified is still just an abstract concept they haven't really dealt with sufficiently in their own mind. They use pejorative terms in their posts like "I'm not going to just execute the guy..." or tell others what they are doing is "executing" the guy in order to rationalize to themself that this really isn't a situation which requires a lethal force response.

    I only hope when "the moment of truth" comes to these people that they are able to recognize the situation for what it is and survive the encounter.
    -Bark'n
    Semper Fi


    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

  10. #115
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    It's those who think that because they take martial arts training they could dispatch this large, adrenalin-fueled, enraged man (who is also well trained) hand to hand that sound like they're spouting pure bravado and machismo.
    A very fair comment, g-frog. Please note that I've not suggested anything requiring training. It's great if you have those options, but a kick to the head of a guy on the ground, a whack with the side of your firearm, these are all within the range of what most people can do in a straightforward way. The Temple case is different. There, the shooter was barely able to walk, given his infirmities. I'm assuming that sort of condition applies to a only a small number of people following along here. They may have no alternatives but to shoot.

    Also, note that in the Temple case the shooter had to be driven away in a squad car because the crowd hanging around was likely to attack him. The police chief and the mayor were both black, as was the assailant, and the family members and community organizations were calling for an investigation and likely prosecution. It was touch-and-go there for a moment. It is reasonable and valid to caution discussants here that, depending on where, who and how it all shakes out, even a righteous shooting can have extremely bad consequences.

    It's always appropriate to highlight the fact that life isn't a movie, and you may not get to shoot, holster your gun and ride off into the sunset as a hero, but that instead you could be in for the fight of your life. The instructor I train with warns us often that there are two battles - the one where you use your skills, and the one that follows involving the police, the DA, et al. If there's any way to avoid that and still resolve the situation posed by the OP, it's best to take that route.

    Our fine members here of the law enforcement community have stressed that speed is of the essence and we've examined the wisdom (or not) of even calling in the incident before engagement. A physical (non-firearm) intervention would perforce have no time penalty here and, per Temple, be potentially even faster and more efficacious with regard to assisting the officer in distress, so there's no foul there.

    And, please note, I don't carry a concealed firearm because I'm afraid to use it or plain to balk when its use is fully warranted. We're talking about a generalized case. A lot of this would depend on exactly how things are set up and how you read the situation as it is unfolding. Some scenarios would demand an immediate shooting, others offer alternatives. I try to be on guard against the gun-centric mindset and consider the pistol to be a single tool in my arsenal.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  11. #116
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    We're talking about a generalized case. A lot of this would depend on exactly how things are set up and how you read the situation as it is unfolding. Some scenarios would demand an immediate shooting, others offer alternatives. I try to be on guard against the gun-centric mindset and consider the pistol to be a single tool in my arsenal.
    I fully agree with this, Shockwave. I have to admit that my responses have been mostly aimed at the details of the Temple case as I conflated them with the original post. I just read the OP again, and it is indeed more generally proposed and I would agree that the appropriate level of force depends on many factors. I also agree that the pistol should only be a single tool among many.
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

  12. #117
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    paramedic70002, bark'n is right, i took what you said the wrong way, i apologize for any offense taken
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  13. #118
    Member Array Bigkahuna's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Here's why:



    It's hard to miss a contact shot, but so easy to miss when you are shaking like someone suffering DT's and urine running down your leg.

    Biker
    If that happens, it's gonna happen whether you are sitting in your car or running to the Officers aid. At least in your car you have some cover and a stable platform to shoot from. You can also move quickly if BG gets the officers gun.

  14. #119
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigkahuna View Post
    If that happens, it's gonna happen whether you are sitting in your car or running to the Officers aid. At least in your car you have some cover and a stable platform to shoot from. You can also move quickly if BG gets the officers gun.
    Bigkahuna, I think you misunderstood because you seem to be comparing the perp taking a contact shot against the officer versus you taking an aimed shot from a distance.

    Biker was saying that HE wouldn't take the distance shot when he's stressed out given the option. Since the guy is distracted, he's saying that he would run up and take the contact shot instead.
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

  15. #120
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    paramedic70002, bark'n is right, i took what you said the wrong way, i apologize for any offense taken
    No problem!
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

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