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The Drive Home

8K views 132 replies 50 participants last post by  TNRocket 
#1 ·
Your on your way home alone from work/function/etc in the city. You are equipped with your normal EDC. It is around 2330 on a Wednesday night and traffic is very light. The road is a typical four lane boulevard with a left turn lane in the center. Up ahead you see a marked patrol car stopped on the right side of the road with its emergency lights on and another vehicle in front of it in what appears to be a traffic stop.

As you draw near, you see a uniformed officer on the ground on his back. His feet are toward you on the grass parkway and his upper body is on the sidewalk. There is a large male atop the officer pummeling him. Adjacent to the sidewalk is a large grass area fronting some sort of business building about thirty yards back that is all dark. As you slow you see the officer trying to ward off blows with his arms as the male continues to pummel him.

You stop and as you exit your vehicle, you hear no sirens or fast approaching vehicles and see no other vehicles in sight. As you round the front of your vehicle, you are about ten feet from the male and the officer. Neither the officer or the male atop the officer, who has his back to you, shows any awareness of your presence and he continues to pummel the officer whose resistance appears to be weakening.

What do you do?
 
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#2 ·
Just reading this quickly without a whole lotta thought, I think I would have laid on the horn inside my vehicle, giving myself a way out, and called 911. Then unholsterd my gun.

The idea would be to make noise to perhaps encourage bg to leave and get help on the way while protecting myself.

Is this not enough? I am wondering as I type.
 
#3 ·
Without a second thought, help the officer. Check surroundings to make sure no further suspects or not walking into a ambush. No need for a firearm at this point get bad guy off of good guy using whatever means possible to stop the attack.
Subdue and hold suspect if possible if not get him off the officer and he can run as far as I am concerned, if he decides to use force against me he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to use force on a trained law enforcement officer so under Arkansas law I must have the ability to retreat in COMPLETE SAFETY or I dont have to retreat therefore I would not retreat and use whatever force needed to protect myself and the downed officer.
At the first safe moment, if the officer had not already get on radio simply call out officer down and the location and you would see lots of pretty lights coming.
 
#43 ·
Without a second thought, help the officer. Check surroundings to make sure no further suspects or not walking into a ambush. No need for a firearm at this point get bad guy off of good guy using whatever means possible to stop the attack.Subdue and hold suspect if possible if not get him off the officer and he can run as far as I am concerned, if he decides to use force against me he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to use force on a trained law enforcement officer so under Arkansas law I must have the ability to retreat in COMPLETE SAFETY or I dont have to retreat therefore I would not retreat and use whatever force needed to protect myself and the downed officer.
At the first safe moment, if the officer had not already get on radio simply call out officer down and the location and you would see lots of pretty lights coming.
I don't think I would go hand to hand with this guy because we know for sure there is already one gun in this fight, the cops. If the bad guy draws the cops gun as I grab him from behind, both my hands are tied up on him and I'm liable to get a round of 40 cal. or 357 Sig, whatever the LEO is carrying into my chest from the bad guy. Do I order him to stop and lay prone, from 2 yards away, if he turns and trys to get up I fire, maybe. Do I put two COM in his back? Maybe.
 
#4 ·
Your scenario hits too close to home. This past January, a Gilbert, AZ police lieutenant was murdered after pulling a car over for a minor equipment defect. The passenger in the car jumped out and shot Lt. Eric Shuhandler in the head.

Citizens in the area heard the shots and saw the officer down and used the radio in his cruiser to report what had happened and to summon help. The bad guys led cops from several towns, at least 2 counties plus Highway Patrol on a 50-mile chase before they were captured.

A matter of seconds separated the arrival of the concerned citizens from the departure of the murderers. If any had been armed, well... who knows.

http://www.azcentral.com/community/gilbert/articles/2010/03/25/20100325gr-shuhandler03271.html

In the scenario you paint, immediate action is required to save the officer from grave bodily harm. I would draw my weapon as I neared them and yell at the BG in the best command voice I can muster to stop or I'll shoot. If he stops, great, if not I'm moving in close for a shot that will stop the BG but not harm the cop. If he disengages and runs, fine, I've helped stop the assault and that's good enough.

In my current condition with a severe back problem I have neither the strength nor the agility to engage in a wrestling match with the BG to get him off the cop, but since I perceive that the BG is using deadly force (his fists) against a downed officer that's all I need in my mind to draw my weapon.
 
#7 ·
And it's HotGuns in for the win! :hand10:

Works for me!

As I was reading through the scenario, I was thinking to myself, I'd slip up behind him since he's oblivious to my presence and place him in a level 3 Lateral Vascular Neck Restraint and render him unconscious in about 3 - 5 seconds since I'm trained in that technique and the placement of the aggressor is in a near perfect presentation to apply it.

However, after reading HotGuns response, I saw how that would be an equally good way to end things. Plus, I wouldn't have to spill my beer. (just kidding)

And after chiefjason's remarks I suddenly realize I'm now damn near 50 years old and the guy has already proven he can take down a cop, and it suddenly makes HotGun's solution even more appropriate the older I get.
 
#6 ·
Well, here is what we are dealing with right now in this area. The murder trial of a guy that beat and shot NCHP officer David Blanton Jr. He shot the officer with his own gun BTW.

http://www2.hickoryrecord.com/content/2010/aug/18/death-penalty-focus-jury-selection/news/

I'm skipping the wrestling or going hands on. The BG has already proven he can take a cop down. Weapon drawn and the BG has a few seconds, maybe, to decide how this ends. Either the distraction will let the LEO get the upper hand, he'll stop on his own, or he'll stop with assistance. There are few instances where I would intervene in a situation that had already started. But this is one.
 
#8 ·
If he is oblivious to me I will just walk up behind him and put a bullet in his head.

I want to minimize danger to the officer, and other uninvolved citizens. I also want to be sure of my backstop. Fearing for the officer's safety and well-being makes this a justified shoot as far as I'm concerned. Now it becomes a question of tactics and for that I will use what I consider the best tactics for all concerned.

Of course there is no telling what I would do in real life, as this hasn't happened to me yet and I pray that it never does.

Biker
 
#10 ·
Here's why:

I want to minimize danger to the officer, and other uninvolved citizens. I also want to be sure of my backstop.
It's hard to miss a contact shot, but so easy to miss when you are shaking like someone suffering DT's and urine running down your leg.

Biker
 
#12 ·
I agree with shooting him, except he is on top of the officer; I would be worried about over penetration. I would not hesitate to help but going for my gun wouldn't be first option unless he was trying to get the officers gun. I am in ok shape and if nothing else I could pull him off long enough for the officer to get the upper hand unless he is already injured.
As always on scene details would dictate what I would actually do but no matter what I'm going to help the officer.
 
#14 ·
I'm not going hands on,even if I. wasn't disabled,if he happens to have the Officer beat to the point he isn't gonna be much help physically you may be overpowered,or as you run up he disarms officer and shoots you.If I fear Officer is in danger since BG will probaboly be straddling Officer I'm lining up the Big dot sights where it's gonna do the most help
 
#15 ·
Maybe make sure the BG has no one else with him first.....make some noise and call 911 wit my left hand as I un holster with my right...just in case things go south I want SOMEONE on the way. I'd rather order the BG off the officer so I don't have to risk hurting the officer. if he doesn't comply get close enough where I have no worry whatsoever of hurting the officer if I have to shoot the BG. I don't think I can stand by and watch as an officer obviously loosing the fight is being pummeled.
 
#16 ·
I've run this scenario thru my head many times,what I would do and the bottom line is anything in my power to hopefully let the Officer go home to his family at the end of the day.
 
#17 ·
"Freeze or I will shoot you!!"

If BG doesnt immediately freeze then take careful aim to ensure I don't hit the officer and then double tap the BG. Repeat as necessary until threat is ended.

If BG freezes then order him off the officer and down on the ground while covering him from a reasonable distance (say 10 ft). Any false moves or lunges and he gets double tapped. Again, repeat as necessary.
 
#22 ·
Screw that. I'm not sitting there watching a LEO get killed. No way, nuh-uh, not happening. If I wasn't armed I still would be sitting there watching. A well placed boot from behind right between the legs might get his attention to begin with.

Agree with the other post about no need in this circumstance for a verbal warning... I just would if I was armed and wouldn't if I wasn't armed.
 
#19 ·
If there's time, dial 911, say "officer down" and give location. Sprint to assist officer.

Without a second thought, help the officer. Check surroundings to make sure no further suspects or not walking into a ambush. No need for a firearm at this point get bad guy off of good guy using whatever means possible to stop the attack.
Same here, as long as the LEO is in the game and they aren't fighting for the officer's weapon. Depending on how things are set up, I'd either grab the BG's head from behind and pull from the jaw backward and control from there or else use my sidearm to whack him in the head. No need for shooting as described so far by the OP. Shooting is always the last resort and we're not there yet.

What follows depends on whether the officer can now assist in controlling the perp.
 
#35 ·
Incredible event!! ppkheat thanks for the post. I'll never again think, hope, believe that one or two shots will stop the threat. . . nor will i underestimate the consequences of one man getting involved!
 
#21 ·
It is clear that many recognize the exigency of the situation and the need for immediate action.
To expand on the point are the following things to realize. With the officer in a weakened state, the susp may at any time gain control of the officer's weapon and shoot the officer and anyone else nearby. The officer's head is on the concrete sidewalk. The susp smashing the officer's head on the concrete could easily cause a skull fracture and possibly death. Even just the punching of the officers head/face, with his head on the concrete could easily cause extreme GBI

The point being that due to the nature of the circumstances the force ladder is completely open and the exigency virtually eliminates any mandatory verbalization befor acting.

Obviously, individual actions will be based on the personal/physical situation of each person deciding to take action.
 
#29 ·
I agree with giving a verbal warning. On are there any witnesses, there is always dash cam and if off the screen, normally audio as well. I would not be able to just try and be a good witness and let it continue, I would have to stop and help and try to put a stop to it. When seconds count, police are only minutes away goes for a downed officer as well.
 
#30 ·
the only "auditory" warning the BG gets is the sound of the safety going off... Before I exited my vehicle, I dialed 911, as soon as they answeed, I'm shouting officer down, giving location... leaving the car, phone "off hook" and I am shooting the BG until he's down. It's gonna be over in 10 seconds or less, I am waiting for police and amberlamps.
 
#31 ·
No warning!
No 911 call first.

TIME is "not" in the officer's favor here. (Even a "FEW" seconds could make the difference.)

The BG guy is dead as soon as I get in place for a "safe" shot. (or TWO)

If the officer is conscious, I ask him to remain still while I make sure help is on the way; then I render 1st aid until said help arrives.
 
#32 ·
Bottom line...I will assist the officer..PERIOD...Age and physical condition will prevent me from going one on one hand combat ...I will keep reasonable distance (10 feet) to prohibit the BG from lunging at me...one and only one voice command to STOP...if no response to my command, my weapon will definitely come into play. The officer's life comes first...consequences will be dealt with after the fact. JMO
 
#36 ·
Flying knee to the bg's face followed by pepper spray. Restrain Until officer can get up or the guy is unconcious. If I see he has a firearm clear line of fire and pull the trigger. Once im older it will probably be the bg getting my shovel across his face.
If I am brave enough to voluntarily go h2h with a guy who just took down a trained officer when I have a gun... then I am not going for a strike. i'm going for a rear naked strangle, pulling him backwards and hooking his legs until the officer can gain control of the situation.
 
#38 ·
Now that you've got this Tiger by the tail, what do you do if the officer is incapacitated and unable to help you?

The officer is out of the fight. What are you going to do now? How long can you hang on? Me, I say cut to the chase, STOP the SOB right NOW! The only way to do that is with a bullet to the CNS, hence the contact head shot.

It's been said that old men will just kill you. As I grow older, and feel years older than my chronological age due to living life to the fullest, I find that I'm doing things in a manner more befitting of an octogenarian. I'm not fifty yet, but mean old man would be an apt description.

If I'm like this now, how will I be when I am an octogenarian?

Biker
 
#37 ·
No warning!
No 911 call first
Even if you were another officer rolling up on this situation, you'd call in "officer down." You just do that. If the LEO on the ground doesn't have the 20 seconds it takes you to do this, then you're too late on the scene. Get that call in first, then take it from there. You will have guaranteed that trained and armed responders are on the way and an ambulance too, probably.

I like CowboyColby's flying knee. In class, we've practiced some techniques for breaking up and ending fights, and what a lot of people seem to want to do instinctively is grab a person from behind by the arms or shoulders. That doesn't usually turn out well for various reasons. Instead, I've found the head-grab from behind to be really effective. Try it at home. Have someone grab you from behind with one arm around your head and the other hand cupping your jaw. You'll see - you're pretty much helpless and you'll be going wherever the person wants you to go.

This is also a good situation for CS because you can reach around and jet the perp right in the eyes. No matter how all this goes down, if you can end it without bullets you'll have a much easier time out on the other side.

PS: Excellent post, ppkheat! Very appropriate to this discussion.
 
#51 ·
I agree that ppkheat brought an excellent and relevent post.



Normally, I would also agree that a call to 911 first might be in order. (BUT; not in this case.)

A 911 call from a cell phone will take a lot longer than 20 seconds. (Been there done that!)

Even "IF" a 911 call only took 20 seconds, It would "hopefully" take a 230gr, '45acp slug LESS than 20 seconds to stop the threat to the officer.


The officer is already down; and there is a possibility he could lose his life in the next "ONE" or "Two" seconds. (Help, "on the way" is NOT going to do this officer any good.) In my mind, this officer needs help and needs it NOW!

Besides:
I'm fairly positive that the downed officer has already called in the "stop". Once the threat has been neutralized, I can "hopefully" use the radio to get help. (To me, this seems the "better" way to go.)



As for going HTH?
I direct your attention to the post that ppkheat referenced. (I do NOT think ANY hth skills wouldh've come in handy here. -and- At 50yrs old, I not interested in trying to BEST a BG; that has already BESTED a police officer.)
 
#39 ·
The reason for the knee instead of the choke first would be to stun him if not knock him out completely, going straight for the choke hold will be tougher if he isn't stunned a little first. You can't rely on the officer to get up in time or at all choke holds are great but they take effect faster if they guy is dazed or been hit a few times first and he won't have as much energy to loosen your hold especially if you followed the knee with pepper spray point blank when you knocked him down.

I would much rather have the officers tazer in this situation to control the bg but doubt you could get it.

What do you Leo's suggest or what would you like to see happen if you were the leo on the ground?
 
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