This is a discussion on Standing Ground In National Forest within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by oakchas and why, on a camping trip in the AZ mountains do we need an AK and a shotty? That's not "camping" ...
Operation Enduring Freedom Veteran
Azchevy wasnt saying they were pros just making a general statement.
Hi cap long guns do not beat superior mindset or training just as a $200,000 dollar mine resistant vehicle with all the electronic gadgets beat an insurgent with an old artillery shell and a homemade pressure plate.
"A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013
Harry Truman used to say "I don't give people hell. I tell the truth and people think it's hell."
Things happen. You can either deal with them, or not.
Why do people tend to dismiss the value of training, saying things like I'm making this out to be a recon v. speznast situation? I'm not. I'm simply saying that the situation is what it will be, and if you aren't prepared to deal with it AS IT EXISTS, then you get dead.
Further, what's with all the disparaging remarks directed toward the opposition. I don't think that multiple opponents with rifles, even if they are inbreed yokles, are anything to laugh at. Idiots with rifles...are still idiots with rifles.
And how does anyone know they were just 'bubbas"?
You don't know who people are. You don't know what they are capible of.
You don't know if this isn't the first time they have scouted camp sites for hotties.
Oh, and the objecting boyfriend...Lots of holes in the wilderness, and gunshots...Well. People are always shooting at something in the woods. :)
They got put off their game this time.
What about next time?
RE: Next camping trip - Ditch the shotgun. Bring another AK. Ammo & platform compatability.
And get a professional rifle class for your woman (you will enjoy it too...).
Contact Mr. Navaro http://www.coloradoshootingsports.com/index.html
He's a Tactical Response guy, and he'll get you done right.
Wow, there is a lot of speculation going on in this thread.
Nothing that was in the OP suggested that there would be any sort of para military manuevers going on in them there hills. Two guys on atv's with rifles even took an interest in a girl in the woods. They did go down the trail and come back and then leave.
Had they had bad intentions, they would not have came back on their atv's they would have left them out of earshot and made their way back through the woods in stealth mode like one does when they are hunting. Made the attack or whatever and then used the atv's to make their way out after all was said and done.
I don't think anyone in this thread is discounting training, but one doesn't have to attend infantry school to be able to go camping in the forest and feel safe. What are the figures on folks taking advantage of crimes of opportunity sticking around for a gun fight when resistance is met? I don't have them but my guess is that they are pretty low. Folks tend to value their own lives more than a quick thrill or romp in the woods with an unsuspecting girl.
Should the OP have moved campsites, maybe. Is hunting season the best time to be in the woods camping, probably not. But just remember every time you let the criminal element or would be criminal element have more ground you are doing nothing but encouraging them to take more ground.
I don't subscribe to the idea that ignoring folks actions when they are up to no good is the right thing to do. Nor do I subscribe to the idea that just because a guy eyes a girl in the woods they are planning on turning into a sex crazed maniac.
BTW, to the OP. Did you happen during your time there to go make your way down the trail the direction they went to see if there was something that caused them to come back your way or not? Glad things turned out ok for you all. Keep your eyes open and be alert.
Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
Texas CHL Instructor
Texas Hunter Education Instructor
Sorry MitchellCT Didn't mean to direct that at you personally. Just that I don't see the situation as that big of a deal. A concern, yes, an international incident , no. I mean all that was left out of some of the responses besides setting up a hasty ambush was also setting out the claymores. And when we do our tactical withdraw to another command post for the night, let's not forget to dig our fighting positions in front of our new tent area, put out early warning devices, and set up interlocking fields of fire. Oh, also don't forget to reinforce your parpit around your fighting hole with rocks and other bullet barriers. Plus make sure you put a grenade sump in your fighting hole in case they have frags. Lol
Farronwolf, the track/trail continues down and levels out then continues on further into forest...nothing special in regards to obstacles or the like that would have prevented the ATV from continuing on. I knew that prior which is why I became concerned when I heard them turn around just out of eye sight, especially after I had just yelled at them. Yes Glockman10, I figured they were good ol boys who maybe had had a few beers, hopped on the ATV with their rifles for some scouting and just happened upon us in a rather remote area and then had some thoughts like, "why not, no one is around." Which is why I decided that upon their return they could see that they were not the only ones with guns and maybe if they did have an idea...well...wasn't a good one. I also see the valid points of Mitchell and Tacman. Needless to say, was an interesting scenario and I appreciate all of your comments.
I would also like to add that after the ATV crested the hill on the return and I could see that the two guys were still on it I felt somewhat better (sounds odd?). Had the ATV returned with only one guy on it, well use your imagination. I do realize that I probably should have been holding my AK not standing beside it.
From all you said about the situation - I think ya did good.
For God, Family and Country!
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth
Goodness! Makes me wonder how I survived so many years without infantry training and NVGs...
1 - The OP was there, and probably could tell by body language these were not drug cartel/professionals trying to take him & his girlfriend out.
2 - Move the camp. Years ago, I was camping out and heard on the radio as I was going to call it quits that 3 escaped convicts, all murderers, were last seen...where I was camping. Turned out later they were 300 miles away, but I left my tent up and moved my sleeping bag & 30-30 about 150 yards away & concealed. Depends on Wx, etc but I wouldn't want to sleep in the same spot. Even if they seemed like good ole boys who aren't all that good, they might go back, do some drinking and get really mean.
3 - I might have been 'cleaning' my rifle, but more likely I'd be further away and concealed if possible. If the ATV returned missing one guy, I'd REALLY get concerned!
4 - I live in southern AZ about 60 miles from the border. I go jogging in the desert regularly. There are illegal trails about a half mile from where I run, but I've never seen anyone. I do see the Border Patrol out sometimes. I don't carry when I jog, but I've thought about it. But I don't mind hiking and camping in AZ. If camping, I keep a rifle & a couple of handguns around, with at least one handgun on me. I don't discuss infantry tactics, train my wife in one handed reloads of shotguns, use NVGs or anything else. I don't set up camp with fields of fire and rotating sentry schedules. Maybe that means I'm not totally prepared...oh well. I'd have missed out on a lot of good living if I wanted to be totally prepared for every possible bad event...
Quietsage- what part of the Kaibab national forest was this in?
Operation Enduring Freedom Veteran
It's good that everything turned out alright for you and your gal. I would've called the park ranger and filled them in with the details. If it made you uncomfortable and not safe then it would've been worthwhile to call them. Next, pack up and camp near other people ( potential witnesses ) in case something were to become awry. Yes, it's your fav spot but I would forfeit favorite for some safety and a lil peace of mind. Other than that it ended alright and you live to camp another day.
Last edited by EPIC SCUMBAG; August 19th, 2010 at 10:17 PM.
I would have moved camp after that. Those guys could easily come back after dark.
"If we loose Freedom here, there's no place to escape to. This is the Last Place on Earth!" Ronald Reagan
It may be because there's no map laying out the exact location of individuals, but I can see how this could have been a complete misunderstanding. You said that there was a hill on the trail and you were parked alongside that trail. Is it possible that the guys on the ATV were looking past her at the hill; talking about the hill, not her? As someone who mountain bikes and has enjoyed quite a few ATV trail rides as well, I can tell you that the words you heard them say could have easily been misunderstood.
My mountain bike buddies and I will often stop near the top of a hill, look at it and make very similar comments to what you described. "Oh, yeah. That's nice. Let's do this." Then we tear off down the hill. I've done the same thing on an ATV. So maybe they were just out scouting hunting locations or whatever, and having fun on the ATV. They can't hear your comments over the ATV's engine, and they hit the hill just because it was fun. Then they came tearing back up the hill trying to catch air when they crest the top.
You may not have even been on their radar.
Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
- Mike Tyson
One thing that the OP stated, but we have all passed over, while focusing on the tactics of what he could/should have done--he mentioned that he had a really creepy feeling about the situation. All I can say is PAY ATTENTION TO THAT LITTLE VOICE in the back of your head whispering to you!!! When the "alarm bells" go off, listen to what they are telling you. This doesn't mean that you prepare a hasty ambush and put a 30 rd magazine into them as they crest the hill on their way back, but your sub-conscious is trying to tell you something--respond to it and then don't tell yourself afterwards that , "Well, it was probably nothing..." It was probably "nothing" because your responded to the subconscious and overt cues.........
Scott, US Army 1974-2004
Freedom is never more than one generation away from extinction. It must be fought for, protected, and handed on or one day we will spend our sunset years telling our children what it was once like in the United States where men were free.
- Ronald Reagan