This one is weird--- related to hospital carry - Page 2

This one is weird--- related to hospital carry

This is a discussion on This one is weird--- related to hospital carry within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I have worked in EMS and in hospital EDs. It is my firm assertion that 'medicine' has more ability/authority to involuntarily hold someone than 'justice.' ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    I have worked in EMS and in hospital EDs.

    It is my firm assertion that 'medicine' has more ability/authority to involuntarily hold someone than 'justice.'

    If you are wrongly arrested, you have access to a veritable cornucopia of resources to get you out. If a medical professional decides that you must be admitted and are 'mentally incapacitated' then you are up the much fabled brown creek without a paddle. How do you protest when you are sedated and tied down? And yes there are plenty of people that still do whatever the good Doctor (and nurse, etc.) says.

    I have seen hospital medical staff, hospital security, LEOs in EDs, and EMS forcefully hold a patient, often administering 'chemical restraints' (Haldol for instance) in the process, in order to subdue someone who was trying to refuse care. Mind you, most of these were completely justified (suicidal, obvious altered mental status), but no system is 100% perfect. Anybody remember the guy who left the country to get married a couple years ago who was carrying some disease? As soon as he set foot back in the country, he was locked up ("medically isolated") by the CDC.
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array goldshellback's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    (Team Enema) we make stuff move
    OOOoooowwwww......hot coffee....in nose......my poor keyboard!

    And yeah, we have a jackpot winner. That story is just incredible!
    "Just getting a concealed carry permit means you haven't commited a crime yet. CCP holders commit crimes." Daniel Vice, senior attorney for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, quoted on Fox & Friends, 8 Jul, 2008

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  3. #18
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    Sounds like the guards REALLY wanted that bracelet. No proof, no suit.

  4. #19
    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    But, back to the OP, the victim will have trouble proving his injuries were not part of the original accident... Well, except for those boot prints...
    Not really. Since the hospital determined that he only had mild blunt force trauma to his chest and were just keeping him for observation, they must have taken chest x-rays. If those don't show four broken ribs, it should be easy to demonstrate that the guards did that damage when "subduing" him.
    Everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face.
    - Mike Tyson

  5. #20
    Member Array faif2d's Avatar
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    Unless the x rays and other records are lost.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Basically, this guy was in an auto accident. They put the wrong ID bracelet on him, one belonging to a woman 13 years younger, told him they were prepping him for chest surgery to remove a tumor.
    It might well be tough to disprove "the computer" or "the ID tag" at a hospital, to the point of being restrained by security. I imagine they get hit with all sort of people who simply don't want to be worked on, go through the procedure, have that colonoscopy, etc. Imagine being tagged incorrectly then trying to dissuade them from going to work.

    Though, whatever else might be said, I can't see how it justifies a firearm response.

    The $12M lawsuit is about right, for an apparent class-A screwup.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  7. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post

    Though, whatever else might be said, I can't see how it justifies a firearm response.
    .
    Huh? The firearm response is for the idiot guards beating the living daylights out of him to retrieve the incorrect tag; the guys who busted his ribs and gave him a concussion. Its called self-defense. It is justified by: 1) the disparity of force; 2) the legitimate fear for one's life; 3) the malicious criminal battery (felony) aka: aggravated assault, taking place. The story said the guards took the time to put on gloves (weapons). They aren't just to protect the guard's delicate knuckles.

  8. #23
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hopyard View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    Though, whatever else might be said, I can't see how it justifies a firearm response.
    Huh? The firearm response is for the idiot guards beating the living daylights out of him to retrieve the incorrect tag; the guys who busted his ribs and gave him a concussion. Its called self-defense.
    After re-reading the article, I realize that I had missed the sentence that described his injuries (broken ribs, ruptured spleen, concussion). All situations are different. Whether the use of lethal force is justifiable depends critically on the legitimate fear of loss of life or crippling injury. In this case, with those injuries, it (now) seems clear he was sustaining exactly that degree of punishing beating from the two staffers. If in the same situation, I too would probably feel justified in helping them to see the error of their ways via Heckler & Koch. My bad, on the quick skim of the article, previously.

    I wonder: Did he hold up his arm with the bracelet and say something so impossible to ignore as "The name/person on this bracelet IS NOT ME; my name isn't 'Alice.' " Seems to me that this sort of situation, so long as one is awake and lucid, wouldn't be that difficult to correct. Yes, many of us have seen the eager beaver types at hospitals who seem to enjoy sticking it to unruly or spirited patience they deem have an attitude, but even so it shouldn't be that difficult to help someone understand and appreciate that his name wasn't "Alice" (or whatever the name of the patient who really was the one named on that ID bracelet).
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  9. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    I wonder: Did he hold up his arm with the bracelet and say something so impossible to ignore as "The name/person on this bracelet IS NOT ME; my name isn't 'Alice.' "
    Really doesn't matter if he did or did not. He is free to get up and leave for his own reasons and owes the hospital administration no explanation whatsoever. Would you expect to be beaten for checking out of your hotel room early? Of course not. Same with someone who fires their doctor and leaves the hospital. Only possible exception would be if they were there on a mental hold or there is a court order.

    Seems to me that this sort of situation, so long as one is awake and lucid, wouldn't be that difficult to correct.
    No doubt true. It, or something similar happens every day in every hospital. It went uncorrected perhaps because either the admin wanted that bracelet badly to keep the evidence, or the guards just didn't know what they were doing and why. Or maybe, they were just thugs looking for an excuse to beat someone that day.

    Yes, many of us have seen the eager beaver types at hospitals who seem to enjoy sticking it to unruly or spirited patience they deem have an attitude, but even so it shouldn't be that difficult to help someone understand and appreciate that his name wasn't "Alice" (or whatever the name of the patient who really was the one named on that ID bracelet).
    By the time the altercation occurred it was beyond that point.

    OT, my wife was almost killed when a completely bogus lab report was placed in her record. No blood sample had been drawn, but miraculously a result appeared in her chart. And the result was "normal" when there was no way it could have been. This prompted a change in IV drugs---and when she questioned what was going on she got bs and crap from everyone.

    She argued with the nurses for two hours from 1 AM to 3 AM before they straightened things out. In hindsight, she should have put her clothes on and left. And had she chosen to do that, I would not expect her to be have been forcibly restrained, let alone beaten.

  10. #25
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    As I said, I fully missed the sentence that described the injuries. Round and round.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  11. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    As I said, I fully missed the sentence that described the injuries. Round and round.
    I really wasn't trying to go round and round with you. I just wanted everyone who reads here to get the message that when you are in a hospital you are not a captive. Don't act like one.

    It is just so common for people to sort of give up their independence and forget their rights, and go with the flow, even when something just doesn't seem correct----as it often doesn't.

    Hospitals are great places, but they are also dangerous places.

  12. #27
    Senior Member Array Barbary's Avatar
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    I wonder if a couple of unemployed, overzealous mall ninjas got a job as hospital security.

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by faif2d View Post
    Unless the x rays and other records are lost.
    And if these records get lost that in and of itself would do two things for this guy. #1 Prove, to most reasonable people, that the injuries were inflicted by the security guards and #2 give him an additional law suit for failure to properly maintain his records as it is the hospitals job to do so.
    Mark

    "The world is filled with violence. Because criminals carry guns, we decent law-abiding citizens should also have guns. Otherwise they will win and the decent people will lose."

    -James Earl Jones

  14. #29
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    Lol If that where me I hope those secruity guards know how to wrestle=)
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by guardmt View Post
    Lol If that where me I hope those secruity guards know how to wrestle=)
    Since where all gonna brag about how tough we are, if that were me they'd both need knee surgery; and breathing tubes. Its not for nothing that I drag myself to MA classes.

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