Another What if....again!

This is a discussion on Another What if....again! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I know certain elements of this scenario have been discussed and I apologize in advance if in my research I missed a thread that did ...

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Thread: Another What if....again!

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    New Member Array mrcat2000's Avatar
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    Another What if....again!

    I know certain elements of this scenario have been discussed and I apologize in advance if in my research I missed a thread that did specifically deal with this.

    To my wife's disagreement in more than one debate, I have always been of the belief that if a BG points a gun at you, that they intend to use it. In which case I will certainly use mine (if no escape options exist). Contrary to her belief that "alot of times they will let you go" and just want your $ or your car, I am not willing to put the decision of my life into someone else's hands. To her scenario of "What if it's a fake gun or some 19 year old playing around?" I respond that if I have what appears to be a real weapon pointed at me, even if by some idiot 19 year old driving by in a car, then I would probably spend my days in court defending my actions to a judge and his mother explaining that her little baby did something very stupid in today's day and age and it cost him.

    Now, with that, a scenario. I am in a a gas station in in the gum and candy aisle when a BG walks up to the clerk with what appears to clearly be a gun and points it at him. He barks and threatens the clerk and doesn't see me. Through the conversation I ascertain that it is imminent that the clerk is about to get shot for not cooperating properly. There is no threat at anytime to my own life or well being, only to the clerk and I am the only other person on earth right now that could save the clerks life with my actions.

    Questions: Aside from the moral obligation, do I have a legal right to fire on the BG before he fires upon the clerk?

    What are the legal ramifications that I could face if I decided to do so?

    Are those ramifications different if I fired upon him AFTER he fired upon the clerk?

    Thanks for your thoughts!

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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcat2000 View Post
    I know certain elements of this scenario have been discussed and I apologize in advance if in my research I missed a thread that did specifically deal with this.

    To my wife's disagreement in more than one debate, I have always been of the belief that if a BG points a gun at you, that they intend to use it. In which case I will certainly use mine (if no escape options exist). Contrary to her belief that "alot of times they will let you go" and just want your $ or your car, I am not willing to put the decision of my life into someone else's hands. To her scenario of "What if it's a fake gun or some 19 year old playing around?" I respond that if I have what appears to be a real weapon pointed at me, even if by some idiot 19 year old driving by in a car, then I would probably spend my days in court defending my actions to a judge and his mother explaining that her little baby did something very stupid in today's day and age and it cost him.

    Now, with that, a scenario. I am in a a gas station in in the gum and candy aisle when a BG walks up to the clerk with what appears to clearly be a gun and points it at him. He barks and threatens the clerk and doesn't see me. Through the conversation I ascertain that it is imminent that the clerk is about to get shot for not cooperating properly. There is no threat at anytime to my own life or well being, only to the clerk and I am the only other person on earth right now that could save the clerks life with my actions.

    Questions: Aside from the moral obligation, do I have a legal right to fire on the BG before he fires upon the clerk?

    What are the legal ramifications that I could face if I decided to do so?

    Are those ramifications different if I fired upon him AFTER he fired upon the clerk?

    Thanks for your thoughts!
    A lot will depend on the state but if a reasonable person has reason to believe a life is in danger you can legally prevent the loss of life.

    However, if a robbery appears to be going smoothly (BG doesn't look jumpy and clerk is cooperating and BG isn't mugging customers) I will have to use judgment and probably won't intervene. if the BG looks like the itchy type that may either purposefully shoot or accidentally shoot (like we saw in the news recently) or the clerk won't comply...I probably would help if able.
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    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Depends on the state, the district attorney, even the first responder LEO and the clerk.
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    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

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    Senior Member Array jhh3rd's Avatar
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    There will probably be a security video and/or audio recording. Just hope your actions before, during, and after make sense to investigators. You will have to recall from memory what happened. Supposedly things like auditory exclusion, tunnel vision, time lapse distortion, and etc. can happen to a human being using a firearm in self defense or the defense of others. What a detective, prosecutor, or jury sees and hears on a tape may not be what you remember.

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Assuming it's like most convenience stores/gas stations... The candy aisle is in direct view of the register (that's where most of the pilfering is done). So, you are directly behind the BG. He has not seen you..
    1.) Draw your weapon. Since the aisle affords no cover, assume a sitting or kneeling firing position.
    2.) Safety off
    3.) BREATHE... Acquire the target... Breathe...
    4.) Loud voice "Hey, You want money? Leave her alone, take mine!"
    5.) As he turns to face you, gun in hand... Yell "Drop the gun!" STOP THE THREAT.

    There is no moral, nor legal problem here... he was turning towards you, you kept the BG from shooting the clerk, he then threatened you with his gun and refused to drop it, you were in fear of your life, and the life of the clerk... you shot to stop the threat. It's all on video tape and 99% of the time all cameras are on the pumps and on the register, so you are not seen except entering and leaving later... BG is seen turning towards you gun in hand... and falling down dead. no sound.

    In a perfect world, that might work....

    Usually, in most states, you are legally allowed to protect another "as if you were in their shoes." Morally, it's the right thing to do... but always remember in MOST states, you can be held civilly liable... In Iowa for example, each bullet you fire, can be a seperate law suit... (According to some who teach CCW courses.)
    It could be worse.
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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcat2000 View Post

    Questions: Aside from the moral obligation, do I have a legal right to fire on the BG before he fires upon the clerk?

    It depends

    What are the legal ramifications that I could face if I decided to do so?

    It depends

    Are those ramifications different if I fired upon him AFTER he fired upon the clerk?

    Maybe

    Thanks for your thoughts!

    Don't mention it...
    Take a self defense and the law class.

    If that is not possible, purchase and read The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, The Gun Digest Book Of Concealed Carry & In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection by Massad Ayoob.

    Your questions reflect a terrible lack of understanding about fundamental consepts related to self defense, and while I don't mean to be picking on you, I'm not going sugar coat things either - A lack of understanding about when you can use lethal force is as, or more, dangerous as not knowing how to use such force in and of itself.

    Given that you do not know who would be giving you advice on this forum, or what background they have, I would caution you to seek reputable training from instructor who's credentials you can verify.

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Oh, and ....^^^^THIS^^^^ Most definitely ^^^^THIS^^^^
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
    John Adams
    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mrcat2000 View Post
    I know certain elements of this scenario have been discussed and I apologize in advance if in my research I missed a thread that did specifically deal with this.

    To my wife's disagreement in more than one debate, I have always been of the belief that if a BG points a gun at you, that they intend to use it. In which case I will certainly use mine (if no escape options exist). Contrary to her belief that "alot of times they will let you go" and just want your $ or your car, I am not willing to put the decision of my life into someone else's hands. To her scenario of "What if it's a fake gun or some 19 year old playing around?" I respond that if I have what appears to be a real weapon pointed at me, even if by some idiot 19 year old driving by in a car, then I would probably spend my days in court defending my actions to a judge and his mother explaining that her little baby did something very stupid in today's day and age and it cost him.

    Now, with that, a scenario. I am in a a gas station in in the gum and candy aisle when a BG walks up to the clerk with what appears to clearly be a gun and points it at him. He barks and threatens the clerk and doesn't see me. Through the conversation I ascertain that it is imminent that the clerk is about to get shot for not cooperating properly. There is no threat at anytime to my own life or well being, only to the clerk and I am the only other person on earth right now that could save the clerks life with my actions.

    Questions: Aside from the moral obligation, do I have a legal right to fire on the BG before he fires upon the clerk?

    What are the legal ramifications that I could face if I decided to do so?

    Are those ramifications different if I fired upon him AFTER he fired upon the clerk?
    Thanks for your thoughts!

    There are many many discussion about this scenario. I see your from Michigan. Most of these questions should be answered in the class you are required to take for your CPL. If you have not taken the class yet, make sure to ask your questions! Michigan does allow the use of deadly force to prevent to death or serious harm of another person. As is stated in many cases they apply the "reasonable man" approach. Would a reasonably man assume the clerk was in danger of being killed? You have to make that decision in a split second.
    You also raise an interesting point, most states including Michigan do NOT allow you to fire at an escaping robber. In other words, if he is running away from you, he is NOT an immmediate threat. There is a video of a store clerk that shot one robber, chased the other out into the street, then returned and emptied his gun into the wounded robber. The clerk was in big trouble because the wounded robber was no longer a threat. so in your scenario when you ask if you can legally shoot the robber after he has shot the clerk, if the robber is now running away, then no you cannot shoot. If it appears that he will shoot the clerk again, then yes.

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    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Welcome to the Forum....

    Welcome to the forum BTW. This is an excellent source of information regarding concealed carry.
    Do you have your CPL yet? If not, make sure you write down questions like this and ask them in the class. I am sure every instructor would love to have a student take the initative to ask these types of questions.

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    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Take a self defense and the law class.

    If that is not possible, purchase and read The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery, The Gun Digest Book Of Concealed Carry & In the Gravest Extreme: The Role of the Firearm in Personal Protection by Massad Ayoob.

    Your questions reflect a terrible lack of understanding about fundamental consepts related to self defense, and while I don't mean to be picking on you, I'm not going sugar coat things either - A lack of understanding about when you can use lethal force is as, or more, dangerous as not knowing how to use such force in and of itself.

    Given that you do not know who would be giving you advice on this forum, or what background they have, I would caution you to seek reputable training from instructor who's credentials you can verify.
    So your advice is to not trust advice given on the internet?

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    In MI, I don' tknow. In FL, you'd absolutely have the right to drop the armed individual in his tracks. You are allowed to use lethal force in protection of others (against thread of death, serious injury and rape).

    Then the "if"s come in. Are you one who feels you'll protect only yourself (or family) or willing to protect others? Do you shout, "Drop the gun!" or anything else? Are you sure it's a gun?

    Like all scenerios, you're going to do what you're going to do at that time, that place. You need to know the legal ramifications of your state before you intervene.
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    Distinguished Member Array ArmyCop's Avatar
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    If the clerk was MY son or daughter - I'd want you to shoot the bad guy. Hey, the BG already showed they aren't an honest trusted person or they would not be doing that in the first place. You DON'T know that they WON'T shoot my son/daughter and I wouldn't want you to wait till they DID shoot them first to prove to any liberal that they need to be shot themselves. I wouldn't want you to take the chance whether they'd shoot or not.

    So

    If I'm the customer observing the robbery - I will have the same thinking process about the clerk being SOMEONE's son/daughter/father/mother and I'll remember that the BG has ALREADY proven themselves UN-Trustworthy by doing that in the first place....
    For God, Family and Country!

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    Member Array ZombieShoot's Avatar
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    Obviously you should know your state laws.

    Given that, if it is legal for you to shoot and you feel that the BG is actually going to shoot the clerk and you can take the shot then take it. Sure you can throw in some verbal commands if you want as well before pulling the trigger. In fact that would probably be a good idea if only to distract the BG and give the clerk time to duck.

    To me, in todays world any BG who pulls a gun is a BG whose willing to shoot you. There are too many stories out there of people complying and still getting shot and killed for me to gamble that the BG won't shoot. So I would shoot.

    You better hope your wife is never in a real life scenario like the one in the Op. She could be in for a shooting.

  15. #14
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    If you are thinking of intervening in someone else's problem you may want to read this:

    http://www.stoppingpower.net/comment...tervention.asp

  16. #15
    Ex Member Array HollowpointHank's Avatar
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    It wasn't a gun, it was a cell phone, and the "robber" was yelling because he just broke up with his girlfriend and needed to vent on someone.Geesh!

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