"Take your pants off!" (it's not what you think)

[Ritestuff]

i'm a bit skeptical on some of this. Would the 'crazy distractions' really work? it sounds like the movies to me. Is there anybody (LEO perhaps?) who has seen this actually work? I could imagine a guy pointing a gun and when the victim starts dancing and singing there's a brief (and i mean really brief) moment of confusion, but he still has a gun drawn and pointed. Is it wrong to have my first thought to be cover and the second thought my gun? As soon as i see cover, i'm moving toward it and drawing at the same time. With the distraction method you are a sitting duck, counting on the BG being an idiot watching you draw and not his pull his finger. In my CCW class it was explained gunfights usually last less than 2 seconds. I don't want my life dependent on distraction. I'd rather take my chances moving. I know i can shoot while moving and it'll be harder for him to hit me too.

I'm enjoying discussions, thanks for all the tips!

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[Guantes]

It doesn't have to be either or. Movement, without distraction is a tough row to hoe.
Distract/Move/Draw

[Ritestuff]

It doesn't have to be either or. Movement, without distraction is a tough row to hoe.
Distract/Move/Draw

Why not just move and draw since movement is the distraction?

[Guantes]

Why not just move and draw since movement is the distraction?

Not so. I have had discussions and done FoF experiments with some of the major names in the shooting/movement field. The consensus is that while movement is good, without another edge/distraction the odds of getting shot increase dramatically.

[BikerRN]

If I was told to take my pants off I would have to ask them a question;

Bad Guy: "Take your pants off."

Me: "Why, do you want to be attacked with a friendly weapon?"

Biker

It's late and the best I could come up with.

[shockwave]

Move off the X, draw and hit them hard and fast

Sounds like a good way to get shot. Imagine you're reading this thread on the StreetThugzForum...

How to deal with an armed victim

'Sup y'all. Lately, seems like more people are carrying handguns. Sooner or later, we're going to have the situation where the punk you're taking down is armed with somethin.' So I'm making it a Best Business Practice to tell the punk to pull off his pants first. That's for my safety. If he decides to go for his piece, I'm gonna drop him.

Realistically, if you think you can draw from concealment and shoot the assailant before he shoots you, prove it with airsoft. Typical draw-to-fire times I'm seeing in training are around 2-3 seconds. The guy who already has his shirt swept back and is waiting for the buzzer and is playing a twitch-game (instead of real life) can get the draw out in around a sec or so. The BG can shoot you multiple times before you're in the game.

So for this scenario, it really all depends on the exact setup and where everybody is. With a single assailant who is an arm's length away, taking away the gun is pretty easy. The second assailant makes that difficult. Hand over the wallet and ignore all other orders. If it looks like he's going to shoot, then get off the X and either challenge for the gun or head for cover and draw. Figure on taking a round or two.

This is a problem I haven't seen discussed very much. Firearms are very expensive and valuable things. If you are being robbed, the criminal will very much want your weapon, and will be enraged that you dared to carry it. If he finds it on you, he's going to want to shoot you out of sheer spite. "Teach you a lesson."

[Guantes]

Sounds like a good way to get shot. Imagine you're reading this thread on the StreetThugzForum...



Realistically, if you think you can draw from concealment and shoot the assailant before he shoots you, prove it with airsoft. Typical draw-to-fire times I'm seeing in training are around 2-3 seconds. The guy who already has his shirt swept back and is waiting for the buzzer and is playing a twitch-game (instead of real life) can get the draw out in around a sec or so. The BG can shoot you multiple times before you're in the game.

So for this scenario, it really all depends on the exact setup and where everybody is. With a single assailant who is an arm's length away, taking away the gun is pretty easy. The second assailant makes that difficult. Hand over the wallet and ignore all other orders. If it looks like he's going to shoot, then get off the X and either challenge for the gun or head for cover and draw. Figure on taking a round or two.

This is a problem I haven't seen discussed very much. Firearms are very expensive and valuable things. If you are being robbed, the criminal will very much want your weapon, and will be enraged that you dared to carry it. If he finds it on you, he's going to want to shoot you out of sheer spite. "Teach you a lesson."

1. That is why I brought up a distraction/edge along with movment.

2. That is not entirely true. In live fire drills and FoF experiments and scenario construction I have done (mostly with instructors) using regular concealed carry setups and clothing, the first shot times are normally sub - 1 second. But, this does not mean that you will not get shot without additional advantages, distraction, movement, etc.

3. Agreed, the second assailant complicates any disarm. Within arms reach I would prefer DATD.

4. I agree on this one, he may well shoot you for carrying.

[ppkheat]

Need a distraction? Go ahead and take you drawers off as well and toss them on the BG.

Seriously, this is one of those tough/impossible to answer scenarios. As usual good SA is the key to preventing from being in a positon like that. We can think of lots of maneuvers right now, but under duress with that gun pointed at your head.......IMHO, it may not be easy to remember them or implement the tactic you can think about right now.

[Guantes]

A few well trained and practiced methods/techniques that will cover "most" situations will serve you better than trying to retain "lots" of same. A gun pointed at your head brings not only duress, but incentive.

[shockwave]

1. That is why I brought up a distraction/edge along with movment.

Understood - and you were correct to do so and I agree in full. Today in class we set up this situation (as well as the bank robber takedown discussed in the other thread) and got to play around with it. We have practice knives and guns and use them to explore situations like this.

In every case, if the gun pointed at you is close enough to grab, you can get off the X and control the weapon. Winning technique here was to move in such a way as to get the gunman between you and the other perp. It was agreed among all the students that you cannot reveal you have a weapon, and that this puts you in a really bad spot.

An unknown problem is the condition of the firearm pointed at you. If you can control the weapon, you can often get it pointed at the accomplice. If it's in Condition One, you can get shots off at the accomplice while taking down the gunman. If it's not racked and ready, that's good for you as it can be used as a bludgeon on the other fellow. We ran this dozens of times.

Some people asked me about the Tueller Drill so we set it up and did it the standard way with back to the knifeman, 21 feet, and a shout of "go." Best I managed was to clear the gun from concealment before I was hit. So in this scenario, going for your weapon is not an attractive option unless you can gain cover. Disarming the attacker and using his weapon worked better. Typical winning outcome was to bend the barrel up and back, taking down the BG and sweeping the accomplice. Remove gun and deal with accomplice. Deal with BG on ground after.

My takeaway here is that if you're going to prepare for this kind of thing, practice it. Two-on-one is bad odds, but not impossible.

[Guantes]

Basically I agree with all that you said with a couple variations.

As you may have gathered I like DATD for these close range encounters, but that is just me. I created it and am well versed and practiced in it. In addition to all its other benefits it eliminates concern over the condition of the aggressor's gun, re using it on him or his partner.

Back to the knifman is a new variation to me, but changes little. Typically I get off three to four shots befor contact, if I move or not.

Bottom line, what you have trained and individudal attributes will generally determine your best action.

[Ritestuff]

i've been enjoying this thread. thanks for all the input. as with everyone else, i'm still learning.

[Spec]

Hand to hand combat and try to disarm the BG with a fast push up and away tactic and snatching his gun from him....

[BugDude]

If it were me, I'd drop 'em and they'd be so busy either laughing or gagging I'd get "the drop" on them instead.

[Macattack]

Would'nt that be cruel and unusual punishment?^