A different CCW tactical question.

A different CCW tactical question.

This is a discussion on A different CCW tactical question. within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I've never owned dogs, never really been around dogs, and don't particully care about dogs. But the other night I was out walking and as ...

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Thread: A different CCW tactical question.

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array Dakotaranger's Avatar
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    A different CCW tactical question.

    I've never owned dogs, never really been around dogs, and don't particully care about dogs.

    But the other night I was out walking and as I walked past this one house they had a dog in a two fence yard. As I walked by the dog jumped the first fence and as quickly as that dog bounded the first fence I shot up to orange and would have gone to red if the dog would have cleared the second fence.

    The QUESTION IS: How can you tell when a dog is going to attack and when is it just barking because you are "invading" their space? I have walked past places where dogs follow in their yard and bark, bark after you passed but to jump a fence and sort of snarl is total different things
    "[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
    They are left in full possession of them."

    Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~Alexander Hamilton


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array Tubby45's Avatar
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    I use the teeth rule. If is shows teeth and is within 35 feet, it's getting sprayed or shot. I ran this past my DA and he said for defensive purposes, dogs are as much if not more of a threat as humans and I would be justified using my gun instead of OC, due to rabies and other infections dogs can transmit. I have sprayed a number of dogs with Fox 5.3. Great stuff.

    One time a loose dog came out from around a house and came up on me at about 15 feet, teeth showing. I dropped the pizzas (I'm a pizza jockey) and kicked it in the throat field goal style (full follow through) and then drew my firearm to cover as I got behind cover. Dog wimpered and the owner came over and took his dog back. Apologized profusely for my trouble and gave me $20. I told him to keep it and buy a leash.

    Never, ever, ever trust a dog. The point is you can never predict the behavior of any animal or human. The dog is always going to attack you, just as we think everyone is going to attack us. Always pay attention and never let a dog get behind you. Ever.
    07/02 FFL/SOT since 2006

  3. #3
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    Gotta agree, Dogs are unpredictable. the are just like any other animal. they may fake charge, or attack. Guess you need to try and make your best guess as to what their intent is.
    "In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." Thomas Jefferson


    Nemo Me Impune Lacesset

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    I think you partially answered your own question. You said there are dogs that follow inside their fence and bark at you. You can tell they aren't trying to "get" you, just doing their job. Any dog who is snarling and showing teeth is like a criminal...they will get you if they think they can get away with it. That's how I view them anyway.
    eschew obfuscation

    The only thing that stops bad guys with guns is good guys with guns. SgtD

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    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Only one thing for it..

    I guess the only answer is to ban ALL dogs, even those little ankle biter dogs. Let's wait for the liberal 'geniuses' to come up with that one!!

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    Senior Member Array PapaScout's Avatar
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    Fragman,

    I sense that you are sort of joking but I believe Denver has banned all pitbulls within city limits as of 2004 or 2005.

    I guess they are considered "assault dogs". :)

    PapaScout
    "If you so much as bunny hop I'll cut your heart out!" Billy Bob Thornton in The Last Real Cowboys

    "I carry a gun for the same reason that I carry health insurance and a cell phone - be prepared."

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    Senior Member Array SOLOLUCKY's Avatar
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    Cincinnati banned pit bulls about 10 years ago also.
    doesn't matter though. every summer i hear of attacks by pit bulls in the city. just not one of them laws that is enforced until the SHTF i guess.
    the idea of "if they can get away with it" is exactly right.
    if ya turn yer back and "ignore" a vicious dog yer asking for trouble. back away just like you would a vicious human being.
    R1

    This is mine. That is yours.

    Lets keep it that way.

  8. #8
    Member Array profshadow's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fragman
    I guess the only answer is to ban ALL dogs, even those little ankle biter dogs. Let's wait for the liberal 'geniuses' to come up with that one!!
    I see it now ".....pry that peekapoo from my cold, dead hands...."
    Armed & Dangerous...and Inconspicuous...

  9. #9
    Senior Member Array Zundfolge's Avatar
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    I know dogs, I've had quite a few and I believe I'm pretty good at reading them.

    Don't make eye contact, don't make any fast moves (running away may trigger a "pursue the prey" response), just keep on walking (but keep an eye on the dog's position).

    99% of barking and growling and showing teeth is posturing.


    As for legalities, I don't think you'd get off unscathed (legally) if you shot a dog inside a yard, so you'd have to wait until the dog cleared that second fence. If you shot MY dog while it was still inside my yard I'd likely greet you armed and have you proned out on the pavement waiting for the police (and God help you if its my wife that gets to you first because you probalby wouldn't survive).

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    I sure don't know Ranger but I'd be totally on your side if that dog had jumped the second fence and you had capped him!

    I'm a dog lover but NOT dog food!

  11. #11
    Senior Member Array Fragman's Avatar
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    Assault dogs...

    Quote Originally Posted by PapaScout
    Fragman,

    I sense that you are sort of joking but I believe Denver has banned all pitbulls within city limits as of 2004 or 2005.

    I guess they are considered "assault dogs". :)

    PapaScout
    Yeah, they banned them in the UK too many years ago. What a surprise....

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Several years ago a bicyclist shot a dog that was chasing him. Got convicted of something, I forget. Was told he did not have sufficiant jeopardy. Bull!
    When I served civil papers for the Sheriff's Department, I had runins with several dogs.
    Some were "barkers". Basically harmless.
    Some were "growlers". Stand still and they lose interest.
    Some were "ambushers". Come up behind you while you are on the porch. These require a little more intestinal fortitude, but they usually go away. Move slowly.
    Only one advanced on me, and luckily the owner was there to call her (had puppies nearby) off before I completed my trigger pull.
    Once I was visiting a friend and reached over his fence to pet what appeared to be a friendly dog. Got a rather hard nip in my "love handle" for my trouble. Apparently I was invading his "spce".
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  13. #13
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    We've had lots of dogs. These are spot on. Some of these were already mentioned. From Good Dog, Bad Dog (A Training Guide) Mordecai Siegal & Matthew Margolis:

    Posssible Signs of aggressive/fear/attack :

    Stance: Erect and stiff, ears pulled back or curled, hackles raised
    Lip:Curled upper lip
    Tail: Stiff or straight
    Vocal: Growling, snarling and threatening barks

    Other:

    Do not run
    Do not stare at him
    Avoid eye contact
    Cross your arms or at sides
    No sudden movements


    The tyrant dies and his rule is over, the martyr dies and his rule begins. ― The Journals of Kierkegaard

  14. #14
    Member Array shaggykb's Avatar
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    Great answers so far and I would like to combine a few and add my 2 cents. I have owned many, bred and trained(not pro) some. Dogs can sense when you are nervous and it makes them nervous. As crazy as it may sound, they are wondering(instinctively) why you are nervous. It's like if you come across a person who's acting nervous and unsure. You automatically wonder what this person is up to, what reasons do they have for acting like this. The principle is the same. Now dogs who jump fences and the ones with a tendency to bite(pitbulls, Doberman's, etc... good dog books will let you know which ones are) are going to have no real reason other than that is what their instincts tell them to do. Most dogs that don't have this tendency will leave you alone(even if barking) if you act like you own the place and are supposed to be there. My parents have a dog that bites everyone that comes to the house who doesn't just come in and sit down like it's their house. People who come right in and aren't hestitant adn nervous she leaves alone. It's amazing how changing a little bit of body language effects the outcome.
    But if you're not a dog person, just try to have a little more confidence around them and definitely have some spray or something handy to help IF it comes to that. Also follow the suggestions of Zundfolge and RockandGlock, they're good ones .

  15. #15
    Distinguished Member Array Dakotaranger's Avatar
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    It's not a matter of nerveousness

    Quote Originally Posted by shaggykb
    Great answers so far and I would like to combine a few and add my 2 cents. I have owned many, bred and trained(not pro) some. Dogs can sense when you are nervous and it makes them nervous. As crazy as it may sound, they are wondering(instinctively) why you are nervous. It's like if you come across a person who's acting nervous and unsure. You automatically wonder what this person is up to, what reasons do they have for acting like this. The principle is the same. Now dogs who jump fences and the ones with a tendency to bite(pitbulls, Doberman's, etc... good dog books will let you know which ones are) are going to have no real reason other than that is what their instincts tell them to do. Most dogs that don't have this tendency will leave you alone(even if barking) if you act like you own the place and are supposed to be there. My parents have a dog that bites everyone that comes to the house who doesn't just come in and sit down like it's their house. People who come right in and aren't hestitant adn nervous she leaves alone. It's amazing how changing a little bit of body language effects the outcome.
    But if you're not a dog person, just try to have a little more confidence around them and definitely have some spray or something handy to help IF it comes to that. Also follow the suggestions of Zundfolge and RockandGlock, they're good ones .
    When I was passing the yard I had no knowlede of dogs in the yard until the dog jumped the first fence snarling. I get the whole nervousness thing working around horses and cattle, and I know dogs wouldn't be any different. The only thing is I've never really been around dogs "other than to know the barking for show thing" This wasn't that at all.

    Thanks everyone I did get a few idea's of what to watch for.
    "[T]he people are not to be disarmed of their weapons.
    They are left in full possession of them."

    Zacharia Johnson (speech in the Virginia Ratifying Convention,25 June 1778)"The best we can hope for concerning the people at large is that they be properly armed." ~Alexander Hamilton

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