Attacked with a knife or defending with one? - Page 2

Attacked with a knife or defending with one?

This is a discussion on Attacked with a knife or defending with one? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Well if an unskilled but motivated person can kill/maim/injure before you can react because the weapon is unseen then you have lost already. If you ...

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Thread: Attacked with a knife or defending with one?

  1. #16
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    Well if an unskilled but motivated person can kill/maim/injure before you can react because the weapon is unseen then you have lost already. If you see the edged weapon and A. either dont have an edged weapon that you have access to or B. have an edged weapon that you have access to but do not have the skills/training needed to use it correctly you have also lost.
    IMO at contact distances a person skilled with an edged weapon can defeat a person with a firearm on a regular basis simply because most individuals once the blade makes contact and causes pain they no longer wish to play because they lack the mindset and determination to carry on.
    A firearm is a one directional weapon meaning you have to be in front of the muzzle to get killed/maimed/injured unless it is used as a club whereas the blade in the right hands is a multi directional weapon that can cause great harm with the flick of the wrist.
    Remember before you start bashing I am talking about "contact distances" 0 to 6 feet, the hole, arms reach, whatever you want to call it it is a place you dont want to be because at this distance as was stated an unskilled but motivated person can cause great bodily harm armed or not before you can react or as Al Pacino said in Scarface "Say hello to my little friend". Sorry Mercop I could not resist.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013


  2. #17
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Example- Training in a lighted room against a big knife you can see, starting the attack on verbal command. In reality we know it will likely be an attack at low light, against a small almost invisible blade, with an attack beginning with a a visual cue. Could the things be any farther apart?
    Some good thoughts here. Let me address the quote above, because it makes some assumptions that aren't necessarily givens.

    In some forms of self-defense training, knife defense is approached from the viewpoint of technique. If the attacker does A, you do B, etc. That's great if everything goes according to plan. And we all know that this is rather unlikely. Instead, it's better to train outside of specific technique and learn to apply basic principles. Once an engagement begins, you want to follow the flow of combat and energy and work with what's happening, whatever it is.

    Some general ideas that seem to work well are to get the knife under control or stay away from it. If it's at your throat, pin it there and proceed. End the encounter fast - your response should be one that ends the conflict in one or two moves. Don't dance around, time isn't your friend.

    Whatever you're learning about this, you want to train until your responses are automatic, so it won't matter if it's case #1 or #2 above. Once it starts, act on reflex and if you don't want to prepare this way, then using the weak hand to fend off the attack while you fish for the gun is possible, as is running for it and/or using anything in the immediate environment you can get your hands on.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  3. #18
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    Very original, I have never seen that on a gun forum before. Have you personally tested this using force on force? I have, hundreds and hundreds a time with every imaginable scenario. Here is the gist of what we have found.

    As soon as someone gets both hands on the gun they tend to only move straight back and even with the knife coming at them they fail to use the weak hand to fend off the attack. They just keep pulling the trigger and get cut to shreds, at least until they fall backwards and bust their.... This is against a visible weapon.

    An unskilled but motivated person will cut your throat or put a screwdriver into your gun before you can activate your ballistic talisman. The reason is that unless you see it, you are not likely to perceive as a deadly force situation, and at contact distance chances are you will not see it.

    Can we avoid anymore witty movie quotes.- George
    If guns are not ballistic talismans, neither are knives light sabers wielded by Jedi knights. If confronted by a knife wielding assailant in an open area, consider running. Pretend you are Marathon Man (Dustin Hoffman, 1976). If running isn't an option - home defense, your family there - then consider what George Adamson ("Born Free", 1966) supposedly said about dealing with a charging lion: "Wait until 10 feet. Don't miss." So wait until 5 feet and shoot in the face while blocking with your free arm? Mangled beats dead.

    I suspect the most likely scenario would be getting stabbed from behind while confronting what you thought was the real threat in front of you...only he had an accomplice (or 2, or 3...). In that case, you may already be dying as you pull your gun, but you should also have at least 10 seconds of useful consciousness left - shoot their heads at contact range. There is no winner here. Kobayashi Maru, anyone? (Star Trek 2, 1982)

    Movies - gotta love 'em!

  4. #19
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Unless you spend time and acquire training, it'll be instinct to fight and hopefully we come out on top. Once in a conversation with a LEO friend of mine, I had asked him about the his training and knife attacks, etc. His response was basically that his partner better help out. He had killed a guy recently that had attacked someone then pulled a gun while being chased down the sidewalk, or something like that, which is why the topic came up.

    The Krav maga that I've done deals with this, but I'm not that far into it. the one thing I like about it is that there's a response to everything and there's no pretty choreography to go along with it. Now, one of the classes I took around here focused a lot on surprise attacks and how, when rolling around with someone or someone is on top of you attacking, to get your weapon while still defending yourself. One good blow is all it takes to end thing for you, so that hand needs to be up.

    A friend of mine has attended numerous Emerson Knife fighting classes. I've never been that into the idea, but I surely wouldn't want him coming at me with a knife, or even anyone else with no training for that matter. I've gone up against a gun, a pipe and a nasty wire. Those were very bad. A knife could have been much worse.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  5. #20
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    Being attacked with a blade is my nightmare. That's why I bring a gun to a knife fight.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Mercop...

    Sure... If I am attacked by ninjas, or Samurai... I am toast. And, I'm sure that some BG's practice martial arts as well... Maybe in every prison in the U.S. there are Do Jo for the use of the cons...

    When the news accounts of home invasions, street robberies, muggings, rapes, and murders start including atrocities committed by these ninja/samurai/kung fu masters, I will only go out in broad daylight, only drive my APC to the local grocery with a team of my neighbors manning weapons, and set my acreage perimeter with claymores and toe poppers.

    Until then, or until I am the first victim (of the ninja/samurai/kung fu masters) reported in the local papers and other mass media outlets; I will be satisfied to carry my handgun, or dead, respectively.

    The odds of being physically assaulted are about 1 in 400. The odds of that attack being initiated by someone who KNOWS how to use a knife, or by someone who would think to stick their screwdriver into my ballistic talisman projecting unit, have got to be astronomical.

    I can see the point of having some martial arts training... I do... very limited... Mostly, I rely on good sense to keep me out of "Chinatown" and other sinister places where these evils to which you allude must lurk all the time.

    I am armed against the toothless, weak willed, skulking, odoriferous, gangsta (wannabe), bad hair, undisciplined, stupid street criminal and his ilk.

    I am not prepared for (nor would I be the target of) the tactically superior unit of professional mercs wielding garrotes, dirks, 5 body katana, silenced weapons, and death rays.

    I consider it good enough.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  7. #22
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    [QUOTE=TedBeau;1755026]Why would you bring a knife to a gun fight? If he has a knife, I am pulling my gun. As Sean Connery's character in the untouchables says, "That's the Chicago way!"[/QUOTE]

    Not if His Highness Daley has his way.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Mercop...

    Sure... If I am attacked by ninjas, or Samurai... I am toast. And, I'm sure that some BG's practice martial arts as well... Maybe in every prison in the U.S. there are Do Jo for the use of the cons...
    There is actually a martial art called "jail house." It is a derivative of brazilian capoerra (not sure of spelling or name), and street stuff.
    It is especially useful in very tight close up situations as you might have in a corridor. Assume that felons know some jail house.

    When the news accounts of home invasions, street robberies, muggings, rapes, and murders start including atrocities committed by these ninja/samurai/kung fu masters, I will only go out in broad daylight, only drive my APC to the local grocery with a team of myneighbors manning weapons, and set my acreage perimeter with claymores and toe poppers.
    A sensible observation. with one qualification I'll mention a little further below.

    Until then, or until I am the first victim (of the ninja/samurai/kung fu masters) reported in the local papers and other mass media outlets; I will be satisfied to carry my handgun, or dead, respectively.

    The odds of being physically assaulted are about 1 in 400. The odds of that attack being initiated by someone who KNOWS how to use a knife, or by someone who would think to stick their screwdriver into my ballistic talisman projecting unit, have got to be astronomical.
    Yes and no on the odds. It depends a lot on where you live. Where you must travel or go during your day.

    I can see the point of having some martial arts training... I do... very limited... Mostly, I rely on good sense to keep me out of "Chinatown" and other sinister places where these evils to which you allude must lurk all the time.
    Again, sensible and how fortunate for those of us who can live that way. Don't know where you are in Iowa, but let's face it, Iowa is not the high crime capital of the US. There really aren't places that rival the mean streets of our decaying cities, and these places send out a steady stream of "escapees" to our smaller towns and cities; sometimes adapting nicely and going straight, sometimes just carrying on as before.

  9. #24
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    George,
    I have done some experimenting along the lines you describe, I'm sure not nearly the amount you have and generally I agree with what you said.

    I have a question in relation to your second paragraph. Whether the off hand is used to fend off the attack or not, do you incorporate and end factor for the person with the gun. In other words, is there a point that the knife wielder loses, say three good com hits? The reason I ask is that as I see it, if such a factor is not included, there is no way for the gun person to win, unless they use the gun as an impact weapon. I realize that determining such an end factor is inconclusive, but without it a loss for the gun person seems virtually guaranteed.

    Do you see my point?

    Gloves
    We use the stun guns, and make educated decisions on what would be the likely result from being stabbed/cut during each evolution. At no time to we tell the student they need to use a gun at all, but about 99% of the time they do. You are going to be much better at controlling the weapon if you have your strong hand in play. During contact distance attacks the drill is not over until the attacker is physically unable to stun the defender.

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array mercop's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Being attacked with a blade is my nightmare. That's why I bring a gun to a knife fight.

    Someone already beat you to the king of the gun show one liners.

  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    I'd say #1 as most knife attacks happen w/o the knifer telegraphing his/her intentions. There are no fancy moves or any posturing. It's fast and downright vicious.

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    I bring a gun and knife to a knife fight. And if I can find an improvised weapon on the street to neutralize the knifer, so be it. And, you can forget about those fancy knife disarms you learn at the dojos as most can get you killed. A knifer is not going to just telegraph by sticking his/her arm out and allowing you to grab the knife. Doesn't work that way in the real world, sports fans.

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mercop View Post
    We use the stun guns, and make educated decisions on what would be the likely result from being stabbed/cut during each evolution. At no time to we tell the student they need to use a gun at all, but about 99% of the time they do. You are going to be much better at controlling the weapon if you have your strong hand in play. During contact distance attacks the drill is not over until the attacker is physically unable to stun the defender.
    If I am understanding you correctly, there is no means for the firepower of the firearm to end the conflict. Is that correct?

  14. #29
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    There are limits to what can be realistically done in training, and one needs to be careful not to learn negative lessons. A stun gun is not a gun. A bullet creating a 15" channel in your chest or thru your face has a dynamic no stun gun matches. And unless the other guy is on drugs or insane, he knows it. A rational knife guy will not try to charge 20 feet and attack a guy holding a gun unless he is suicidal. Yes, he may cut up or even kill the guy he's attacking, but a round in the chest is going to leave a mark. If the attackee waits and shoots him in the face at near contact range, the attacker is likely to die - or he'll have such severe injuries that he'll be caught by the cops later on.

    That is why I got away with pulling my 6 shot 22 against 8 guys...no one said, "8-6=2, we can take him!" They all wondered if they would be shot, and I didn't look like I had much money anyways (and I probably had no more than $20).

    That is why no sane knife guy will charge against a gun. He may well get behind you and stab you when you are paying attention to someone else. He may stab you before you draw a gun. But the odds are strongly against him getting cash and leaving unmarked if he presses the attack in the face of a drawn gun. If he does, then depending on range, shoot him in the chest and move. Shoot him in the head and move. Block with your free arm as best you can, shove the gun in his belly and empty it. Even if you die, you probably won't die alone.

    If someone wants to kill you with a knife, they aren't likely to start with a charge. In air-to-air combat, 80% or more of kills are by the guy you don't see. The guy likely to knife me is one of the guys who come up on me while I change my tire at night, or several guys surrounding me on the street - and that is why I carry a gun. And nowadays, most of them will be carrying one too. Just IMHO.

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Unless I am misunderstanding, the stun gun represents the knife.

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