Bad and Good - AK47 used for Self Def(merged) - Page 2

Bad and Good - AK47 used for Self Def(merged)

This is a discussion on Bad and Good - AK47 used for Self Def(merged) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by tangoseal What would have been more legal? I am curious now that you have opened Pandora's Box on this thread. I guess ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    What would have been more legal?

    I am curious now that you have opened Pandora's Box on this thread.

    I guess he should have used harsh language or maybe told them to wait before they killed his family so he could have the pastor come over and pray for them first.
    The law is directly in violation with his natural right to self defense.
    I think a gang of 20 is certainly deadly force...armed or not.
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  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    I think a gang of 20 is certainly deadly force...armed or not.
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  3. #18
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    I don't agree with his tactical method in that of going into his home only to then exit it once more to what is in net effect place himself into danger with intent to engage a threat(s).
    That in and of itself is almost always fubar...And has resulted in a number of news cases where persons have found themselves 'being forced' to fire onto others and subsequently they themself see the inside of a prison. This most recently occurred several months ago with the case of the father who brought a gun outside to 'defend' his son from shouting neighborhood kids, as rather than pull he and his boy inside behind locked doors and dial 911. IIRC the event occurred in NJ.

    Further firing shots of any number into the ground (or air) as 'warning' shots, is all kinds of fubar. Many cases past to present that just do not support 'warning shots'. Where people get this (TV & movies) I'm not sure exactly, but they really need to stop.
    If you display a firearm to another with intent of self defense that is one thing. But to discharge it...You had better have aimed and missed as rather than made so called warning shots. As well you better have VERY GOOD reason to as in immediate danger to pull that trigger. Being "dared" during verbal jousting to do so is not nearly reason enough. Sorry.

    Had any of the other 20+ men (per the victims account) been armed with just a handgun he'd have been toast.
    His family and his babies and his cousin too; Toast.
    Having a gun of any sort does not provide a bubble of invincibility around ones self. All it takes is one veiled and good shot on to you, the GG, to nullify you as you stand with gun in hand. Now what?!

    Dude would have been far better off to have stayed in his home upon re-entry, armed himself, dial 911 and to have he and his cousin take observation points among his perimeter toward _potential_ that they might try to breech his castle.
    To which at such time he then would have been justified to discharge his firearm be it as a hit, or miss.

    Yes his method in the end worked to save his family that day.
    But now what, about tomorrow?

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  4. #19
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    It ain't about the AK.

    It's about warning shots.

    The AK is just media dressing. Doesn't really matter. It could have been a Marlin 336 in .35 Remington...he's still be in trouble for WARNING SHOTS.

    His real crime was misdemeanor waste of centerfire rifle ammunition, and felony failure to train.

  5. #20
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    Random thoughts:

    For the Brady bunch: So much for wanting to know why anyone would need more than a bolt-action hunting (soon to be ‘sniper’) rifle to defend their home.

    For the "Truth in News Reporting" crowd: In the spirit of reporting just the facts, let’s make sure we show a half-dozen AK-47s, not just one. I’m surprised they didn’t throw in a few grenades just for color.

    Lastly - I have to wonder if the shot-spotter thing ends up being a quicker way of getting cops to your emergency. Grier’s wife called 911 presumably a minute or two before he fired the shots, so I really do wonder which got the cops’ attention first. Might be worth keeping a couple of mags around loaded with blanks just in case someone breaks a leg, y’know?
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  6. #21
    Senior Member Array DUNDEM's Avatar
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    This is why I love living in a state where I can legally carry a firearm. If it was MS-13 I can't blame him, those guys are no joke.

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DUNDEM View Post
    This is why I love living in a state where I can legally carry a firearm. If it was MS-13 I can't blame him, those guys are no joke.
    What's even worse is that we have Soldiers, Sailors, and Marines that are MS13 serving in active duty US Mil right now. They get out and teach advanced combat tactics to scumbags.
    So its a gang that is taught skills used by the very best combatants in the world, the US Military.

    So if you think your little weekend tactical course you took can outshoot these guys you best not miss alas you will be swiss cheesified'!
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  8. #23
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    Long Island Man Arrested For Defending Home With AK-47

    http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/09/...me-with-ak-47/


    UNIONDALE, N.Y. (CBS 2) — He was arrested for protecting his property and family.

    But it’s how the Long Island man did it that police say crossed the line.

    He got an AK-47 assault rifle, pulled the trigger and he ended up in jail, reports CBS 2’s Pablo Guzman.

    George Grier said he had to use his rifle on Sunday night to stop what he thought was going to be an invasion of his Uniondale home by a gang he thought might have been the vicious “MS-13.” He said the whole deal happened as he was about to drive his cousin home.

    “I went around and went into the house, ran upstairs and told my wife to call the police. I get the gun and I go outside and I come into the doorway and now, by this time, they are in the driveway, back here near the house. I tell them, you know, ‘Can you please leave?’ Grier said.

    Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun; and that their shouts brought another larger group of gang members in front of his house.

    “He starts threatening my family, my life. ‘Oh you’re dead. I’m gonna kill your family and your babies. You’re dead.’ So when he says that, 20 others guys come rushing around the corner. And so I fired four warning shots into the grass,” Grier said.

    Grier was later arrested. John Lewis is Grier’s attorney.

    “What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,” Lewis said.

    Grier said he knew Nassau County Police employ the hi-tech “ShotSpotter” technology in his area and that the shooting would bring police in minutes. Cops told Guzman he was very cooperative.

    Grier also said he was afraid the gang outside his house was the dreaded MS-13. And Nassau County Police Lt. Andrew Mulraine, head of the gang unit, said MS-13 has 2,000 members in the county.

    “They’re probably the most organized. They almost have a military hierarchy within the gang, so they are the most organized gang we encounter on a daily basis,” Mulraine said.

    You may think a person has the right to defend their home. But the law says you can only use physical force to deter physical force. Grier said he never saw anyone pull out a gun, so a court would have to decide on firing the gun.

    Police determined Grier had the gun legally. He has no criminal record. And so he was not charged for the weapon.

    That ShotSpotter technology pinpoints where a gun has been fired within 35 feet. Police said it also detected two other shootings in nearby Roosevelt that night.


    Real world. Please comment and discuss. Please define your state statutes that guide your comments

  9. #24
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  10. #25
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    Can't blame the guy for what he did BUT, he has enough firepower to hole up in a safe room, call the police, and destroy ANYONE who is dumb enough to come into his house. Maybe that's the best choice. After the first 2 or 3 gangbangers have holes in their chest, the rest of the mob would leave...Also, this guy is going to have to move, because he's got a giant invisible target on the front of his house now...that really sucks.

  11. #26
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    While he has my sympathies, I think his actions would have got him charged in most places.
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  12. #27
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    Grier said the five men dared him to use the gun; and that their shouts brought another larger group of gang members in front of his house.

    “He starts threatening my family, my life. ‘Oh you’re dead. I’m gonna kill your family and your babies. You’re dead.’ So when he says that, 20 others guys come rushing around the corner. And so I fired four warning shots into the grass,” Grier said.

    Grier was later arrested. John Lewis is Grier’s attorney.

    “What he’s initially charged with – A D felony reckless endangerment — requires a depraved indifference to human life, creating a risk that someone’s going to die. Shooting into a lawn doesn’t create a risk of anybody dying,” Lewis said.
    Reckless endangerment? Sounds like he thought very carefully about what was being said and how quickly the danger was mounting.

    Indifference to human life? No, rather a deliberate choice that if it's indeed going to be him and his family made to be on the chopping block, that he's bloody well going to let it be known he's both willing and able to send a few of the felons there first.

    It's an interesting example. It's all guesses from this vantage point, of course, but it sounds like those fingering him for crimes are looking solely at the firing of the gun and wholly ignoring the credibility of the threats made. Then again, sticks and stones ... blah blah blah. Nobody had actually harmed anyone, at the point he fired. A good lesson, perhaps: to view deadly force as a LAST resort, not a preemptive measure. I agree that his actions preceded the level of grave threat. He almost certainly wouldn't be in jail or charged had they quickly retreated to a "safe" room and maintained a defensive position, defending the hallway approaches with their very lives.

    As a side note, I wonder how quickly police arrived, given 911 was called and (presumably) it was indicated that a quickly growing crowd of seething young men were threatening death and destruction of the family.

    Tough situation. Raises a lot of questions as to when a threat is real and immediate enough to act.
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  13. #28
    Member Array bsms's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    ...So if you think your little weekend tactical course you took can outshoot these guys you best not miss alas you will be swiss cheesified'!
    Actually, the emphasis in the military is with long guns. My son-in-law did 2 tours in Marine infantry in Fallujah, and I can outshoot him with a handgun...and a lot of guys using this forum can outshoot me in their sleep. But give him a machine gun, and things would change real quick! And we won't talk unarmed combat, since this 52 year old runt would get his rear handed to him.

    I did do a final tour in Afghanistan in 2007...pushing papers, mainly. No one wanted an old guy with bifocals on patrol, and I couldn't blame them. But most of the fighting I knew about in Afghanistan took place in the mountains, or with armed groups attacking a remote FP, or sometimes an ambush of a convoy. Since few gangs have access to fully armored Humvees, I'd guess there would be differences there as well.

    And the tactics are different than what works for a gang in most cases. Very few gangs find themselves needing to set up a defense against several hundred armed men, or needing to clear a building of shooters. Seizing the high terrain isn't exactly gang banger style, either...I don't think. Just guessing, since I don't find myself dealing with gangs all that often. Like never. Happily.

    In this case, another news account had the guy also firing at least one warning shot into the air, which is definitely not a good idea in an urban environment. Also, warning shots, IMHO, communicate the idea that you are not willing to shoot. I'd save the ammo, stay inside, call, and shoot to kill if they forced an entry.

  14. #29
    Distinguished Member Array tangoseal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bsms View Post
    Actually, the emphasis in the military is with long guns. My son-in-law did 2 tours in Marine infantry in Fallujah, and I can outshoot him with a handgun...and a lot of guys using this forum can outshoot me in their sleep. But give him a machine gun, and things would change real quick! And we won't talk unarmed combat, since this 52 year old runt would get his rear handed to him.

    I did do a final tour in Afghanistan in 2007...pushing papers, mainly. No one wanted an old guy with bifocals on patrol, and I couldn't blame them. But most of the fighting I knew about in Afghanistan took place in the mountains, or with armed groups attacking a remote FP, or sometimes an ambush of a convoy. Since few gangs have access to fully armored Humvees, I'd guess there would be differences there as well.

    And the tactics are different than what works for a gang in most cases. Very few gangs find themselves needing to set up a defense against several hundred armed men, or needing to clear a building of shooters. Seizing the high terrain isn't exactly gang banger style, either...I don't think. Just guessing, since I don't find myself dealing with gangs all that often. Like never. Happily.

    In this case, another news account had the guy also firing at least one warning shot into the air, which is definitely not a good idea in an urban environment. Also, warning shots, IMHO, communicate the idea that you are not willing to shoot. I'd save the ammo, stay inside, call, and shoot to kill if they forced an entry.
    Well I was referring to the fact they have been trained mostly. But you hit good points too. Btw they know how to use a machette better than most of us

    I would have handled it all cool

    They are yelling how they are gonna kill me yada yada etc...

    I walk out front on the porch and slowly start strapping kevlar on my chest.
    I calmly sit down on the front porch steps, don my Pro-tec helmet I still have from Navspecwar
    Start taking the dust covers off of my aimpoint optics on the AR15
    Rack the charging handle a few times to make sure it works and makes a nice click clack sound.
    Slap a Magazine in the carbine.
    Rack a round in the breech.
    Light up a Smoke.
    Puff real deeply.
    Stand up.
    Attach the carbine to my single point sling.
    Put my Ipod on with some White Zombie playing supercharger heaven.
    Turn the aimpoint to my desired brightness.
    Threw my cigarette down on the ground.
    Took a deep breath
    And said alright you (insert bad word here)
    "Who wants to be the first one to visit big daddy Satan"

    i'd make it look like the modern day Clint Eastwood movie

    Maybe they would call my bluff, but I wouldnt be bluffing.
    If they were gonna come in my house and kill me anyways I might as well take as many of them as I can.
    But what they wouldnt realize is that I have trained my wife delightfully in advanced tactical application and she is a bonified magpul dynamics graduate.
    See http://www.magpuldynamics.com/traini..._carbine.shtml
    So she would just finish the job after I started it.
    Maybe they would just talk some crazy smack but leave.

    *Of course this was all depicted with imagination, not the wife part though, that was real. It probably wouldnt go down like that. Id be in the house in cover waiting on Police to arrive but dont doubt that I would be heavily armed and already easily pissed.
    "I believe that the right of the citizen to keep and bear arms must not be infringed if liberty in America is to survive." - Ronald Reagan

  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tangoseal View Post
    What would have been more legal?

    I am curious now that you have opened Pandora's Box on this thread.

    I guess he should have used harsh language or maybe told them to wait before they killed his family so he could have the pastor come over and pray for them first.
    The law is directly in violation with his natural right to self defense.
    What have been more legal is if he stayed inside his home ready to defend rather than being outside his house. If he was already attacked and had no time to get into his home, then it made sense he defended while outside.
    As far as the law is concerned, it is what it is in NY as their self-defense and gun laws s**k!! But, ignorance is no excuse for breaking the law. If you don't feel it is right, lobby to change it rather than break it.

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