Buying a foreclosed home may not be a bargain (scenario, really)

This is a discussion on Buying a foreclosed home may not be a bargain (scenario, really) within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Woman had a no contact injunction against previous owner... Previous owner calls locksmith, shows old I.D. proving "residence," gets in house, gets shot. Wild story. ...

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Thread: Buying a foreclosed home may not be a bargain (scenario, really)

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Buying a foreclosed home may not be a bargain (scenario, really)

    Woman had a no contact injunction against previous owner...

    Previous owner calls locksmith, shows old I.D. proving "residence," gets in house, gets shot.

    Wild story.

    >>>Dallas news story<<<

    It's possible that the guy was unarmed... Don't know Texas law (Castle doctrine?) Is the possible disparity of force or the injunction enough to keep her out of jail?

    How would you have handled this one? In Iowa, as long as he's not armed, it would be really hard to justify a shooting even if he's sitting on my couch watching TV and eating my foodstuffs, as long as he's not armed..
    It could be worse.
    "A law that burdens the exercise of an enumerated constitutional right by simply making that right more difficult to exercise cannot be considered “reasonably adapted” to a government interest, no matter how substantial that interest may be."
    Wollard V Sheridan

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    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    How would you have handled this one? In Iowa, as long as he's not armed, it would be really hard to justify a shooting even if he's sitting on my couch watching TV and eating my foodstuffs, as long as he's not armed..
    The way various situations are handled will depend largely upon an individuals training, expirience, and local laws.

    If you come to my home uninvited I can presume that you are not there to offer me milk and cookies.

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    JD
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Woman had a no contact injunction against previous owner...

    Previous owner calls locksmith, shows old I.D. proving "residence," gets in house, gets shot.

    Wild story.

    >>>Dallas news story<<<

    It's possible that the guy was unarmed... Don't know Texas law (Castle doctrine?) Is the possible disparity of force or the injunction enough to keep her out of jail?

    How would you have handled this one? In Iowa, as long as he's not armed, it would be really hard to justify a shooting even if he's sitting on my couch watching TV and eating my foodstuffs, as long as he's not armed..
    Not quite:

    704.1 Reasonable force.
    "Reasonable force" is that force and no more which a reasonable person, in like circumstances, would judge to be necessary to prevent an injury or loss and can include deadly force if it is reasonable to believe that such force is necessary to avoid injury or risk to one's life or safety or the life or safety of another, or it is reasonable to believe that such force is necessary to resist a like force or threat. Reasonable force, including deadly force, may be used even if an alternative course of action is available if the alternative entails a risk to life or safety, or the life or safety of a third party, or requires one to abandon or retreat from one's dwelling or place of business or employment.
    It would be relatively easy to articulate justification once the level of a home intrusion is reached, even of the person is not armed they can still be a threat.

  5. #4
    GM
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    Such a story! I understand very well why she was terrified of him.
    "The Second Amendment: America's Original Homeland Security"

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    A 300 pound ding is a significant threat, armed or not.

  7. #6
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    JD, not gonna argue with you (much... I love to argue)... but as long as no "threat" is present... As long as he's just sittin' there watchin' the TOOB and eatin' some munchies... he is not a threat to your life or safety, you will not be "avoiding injury" by shooting him. Further, the alternative to using any reasonable force, including deadly force, would not entail a risk to your life or safety. You would not be required to abandon or retreat from your dwelling. All you have to do is call 911 from the house phone, or the cel phone on your person.

    JD, I'm not advocatng not doing something proactive... but, as a reasonable person, imagining myself in your shoes as the homeowner in a similar situation, according to the law, I would wonder why you didn't call 911.

    Now, in this scenario... previous owner is sitting on my couch eating bon bons and watching my tv... I walk in, tell him to get out of my house.. he laughs at me and says.. "My house, man... you get out..." and turns back to the tv... As long as he never gets up.. never walks towards me... the only "loss" you are preventing under the law is a few watts of power and a few bon bons... and in Iowa, as you know, you cannot protect property with force.

    Your only recourse is to call 911 and let the authorities handle it. I'm not saying you can't have a gun pointed at him the whole time... I'm not saying that if he moves towards you, you can't shoot him... I'm sayin...If he just sits there... all you can do is wait for the authorities...

    Now, assuming you were the lady in this case... and he's in your house standing up... you might have disparity of force and a reasonable person (what with all his past crazy hijinks) might easily see that you were in fear of your life..

    Otherwise.... let's say she shot him on the couch while he ate her chocolates.. then we might have a problem....

    But let's remember, he didn't use any force to get into your house, he called a locksmith, and the locksmith let him in... He didn't kick down your door... he didn't even act forcibly... Now, because the locksmith left the scene we have no witnesses to what actualy occured... Did Mr. looney threaten her... move towards her as she was calling 911?

    According to the news report, the 911 tape says she is saying "get off my porch..." and then 2 gunshots... was he leaving? Did she say it when he was gaining entry? Did she say it after he was in???

    Lot's of grey areas here for a shyster to work... I'm gonna try to keep an eye on it see where it goes...
    It could be worse.
    "A law that burdens the exercise of an enumerated constitutional right by simply making that right more difficult to exercise cannot be considered “reasonably adapted” to a government interest, no matter how substantial that interest may be."
    Wollard V Sheridan

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    JD
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    I'm not saying that I'd plug the guy instantly, nor am I advocating doing such, just simply stating that in Iowa you do have options and that just because someone is not armed, does not make them a threat. Sure I'll call 9-1-1 but the guy better keep his rear on the sofa and his hands where I can see them.

    In the case of this story, only two people really know what went down.

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JD View Post
    Not quite:



    It would be relatively easy to articulate justification once the level of a home intrusion is reached, even of the person is not armed they can still be a threat.
    She tried every other possible legal avenue, nothing short of jail for life or death would stop this guy...she tried for years. I don't think anyone would have fault with her after the guy tricked a locksmith into letting him invade her home while she was there. in a previous instance the guy had a knife!
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    Senior Member Array gilraen's Avatar
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    I won't find fault with what she did. The man was off his rocker, and known to be violent. As sketch says, she tried everything else. The man was a danger. AFAIK, the LEOs' hands were tied. The court didn't/couldn't do anything. She was scared, and tired of her home and sanctity being invaded.

    The man should have been in an asylum. At least he's now at rest. Sad? Most definitely.
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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I really don't find fault with what she did either... I just hope the D.A. sees it that way, too.. otherwise, it could go to trial... And regardless of the outcome, that's not a good thing for her.

    Update: She was arrested... three shots fired... ruh roh! going to the grand jury.

    UPDATED STORY
    It could be worse.
    "A law that burdens the exercise of an enumerated constitutional right by simply making that right more difficult to exercise cannot be considered “reasonably adapted” to a government interest, no matter how substantial that interest may be."
    Wollard V Sheridan

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I would predict a no bill.

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    In Tx all shootings go before a grand jury,I will bet money they find her Justified,the guy was a definite threat.
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
    --Mayor Marion Barry, Washington , DC .

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    Member Array tessa's Avatar
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    I'd like to know why he wasn't arrested sooner for violating the protection order. Those things seem to be completely useless. Even when you violate one, nothing happens.

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    Senior Member Array Macattack's Avatar
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    Poor lady, at her wits end. Sounds like a lifetime movie. You're right tessa, those protection orders and restaining orders are worthless. Hope she can get through this, emotionally and leagally speaking
    "In those days, there was a lot more respect for other people and it showed in peoples values.... Today the word value means nothing more than something you get on the $1 menu at McDonald's." -BARK'N

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    "The Burning Bed" all over again.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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