Aftermath of Premature Draw

This is a discussion on Aftermath of Premature Draw within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; First of all great topic. Sig guy is correct, Furtive movement is the legal term that would cover this scenario. "A furtive movement in such ...

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Thread: Aftermath of Premature Draw

  1. #16
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    First of all great topic.

    Sig guy is correct, Furtive movement is the legal term that would cover this scenario.

    "A furtive movement in such cases is a movement reasonably consistent with going for a weapon and not reasonably consistent with anything else under the circumstances.

    "The law does not demand that your perceived antagonist have a real weapon in order for you to employ lethal force in self defense. It only demands that his actions create in your mind a reasonable and prudent belief that he has a weapon. If he is close enough to employ such a weapon, and if his actions are consistent with an armed person trying to kill you (Diallo turned suddenly and thrust the hand with the black object toward the officers), then the requirements have been met for you to justifiably use deadly force in order to defend your own life."


    Now the issues begin. I would call the police and have them respond. I assure you if he does not call right then he will call later after talking to friends and family and report you as the crazed gunman in the parking lot. If the other person does not want to stick around great better for me. Get a description and LPN is possible.

    Now a couple of things to consider. The experience, attitude and training of the officer is going to play a big part in this. Do not come off with some macho "I was 1/4 pounds worth of trigger pull away from busting a cap in him, but my Navy SEAL, Ranger, Security Guard training saved him" attitude. This is the time to articulate what happened in a calm manner relating the facts and nothing more. You perceived a threat and reacted to it. You did not use deadly force as no weapon was visible or presented.
    This is also a time that if the officer feels the need to disarm you let him without promoting the 2nd amendment, your right to carry or the legalities of disarming you. For those of you that carry audio, video or a stenographer with you for encounters with the corrupt, death dealing, drug smuggling, evidence planting LEO's I would not announce that fact unless required by law it could just make matters worse. If the other person stays do not engage in a ******* contest of who did what to who let him say his piece and you say yours.

    1911PKR just wanted to point out your statement about your lawyer pointing out the bad guys previous crimes. It won't happen. Prior bad acts, arrests or convictions, are deemed prejudicial in the legal system. As far as anyone is concerned the guy was returning from church where he fed the homeless hamsters of the world while knitting sweaters for the elderly when you drew your weapon and threatened him.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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  3. #17
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    Well, after re-holstering my weapon and then mentally cussing at myself for a few heart beats, I would apologize and offer to call the authorities. As tacman605 already pointed out, when they respond to the scene, I would be careful to present the case for WHY I felt endangered. I would not offer anymore detail than necessary, though. Try not to confuse the issue with peripheral information such as, I was upset with my boss, or the kids were really getting on my nerves today. Just state the facts as I perceived them at the time and keep repeating them. No hindsight recriminations either. There will be enough of that from ever one else.

    If worse came to worst, SHUT UP AND POLITELY ASK FOR YOUR LAWYER! You have the Right to remain SILENT...... (That means SHUT UP!) If it goes that far, tighten up the ol' sphincter and expect a bad day.
    "Mind own business"
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  4. #18
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    I'd say, "Back off, and everybody goes home." Get in car and leave.
    Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
    No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.


    Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.

  5. #19
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    anyone else find it funny that tacman used the term Navy Seal, Ranger, Security Guard training, together in a sentence, me thinks we have a marine or a air force person in our midst, seeing as how he groups rangers, seals, and tactical security guards in the same category. no offense meant, just trying to be funny. on the topic at hand, I think at that point, i would be calling LEO's to the scene and once I hung up with them I would be calling my lawyer to the scene
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  6. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    What do you do? Setting aside previous options and since the OP states that I have already drawn my weapon, it now depends on the reaction of the guy following me. What were his real intentions? If he was armed and had devious intentions, that I thwarted, he probably won't stick around for the police. If he was just following me unintentionally, he probably learned a lesson, that he and I might be able to sort out.

    Did you make a mistake? Did you preempt an attack? Possible.

    Do you tell him to get away knowing that he could be nothing more than an innocent guy trying to go home too? Yes, and I'll add that he will not be riding in my car with me, since that is where it appears he was heading.

    Knowing that since your gun has come out you are going to call the police do you do so at that very moment or attempt to leave the scene and call from distance? If the guy ran off, I call the police from there (if I feel safe); if the guy is muttering apologies, I suggest calling the police and see where it goes from there

    What do you tell the police? This would be a time to be articulate as possible and explain to them why Limatunes had me standing there with a gun in my hand.

    Considering you very well could have just committed assault with a deadly weapon, how do you attempt to keep yourself out of jail? See above.

    How do you handle this? If this turned out that it was a BG, I handled it alright. If he was "innocent", I (or the police) will perceive me as being over-reactive or too jumpy, and time to give up caffeinated drinks.
    This is one of those hair-splitters which can't be thoroughly answered by reading a description in a few sentences, one isn't able to see and sense the actual scenario. Everyone's mental vision of this will differ somewhat producing different answers. Good exercise though.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  7. #21
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    After re-holstering my weapon I would engage the young man in conversation. Trying to defuse the fear by apologizing & explaining what triggered my actions. I would then get a read on my new parking lot friend asking if he would like to get the LEO's involved. During this time I would give the impression by body language & words that this scenario happens all the time. Also that I have the right to draw if I fear for my life. Explaining to him that calling the authorities will cause a big delay and paper work and possible trip down town. I would then let him make the call on what happens next, hopefully we just part ways.

    Good mental exercise!
    While people are saying "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, ... and they will not escape. 1Th 5:3

  8. #22
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    Cool

    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Nice one Lima.

    If I react 'correctly' I will be moving as I draw. In this case, around the front of my vehicle to put the engine block between me and the guy. When I recognize that he's (not likely) a threat, I lower my weapon but keep moving until vehicle is between us.

    I apologize and explain that I was in fear for my life. Which would be the truth. After that I have to see where he takes it. Edit: I tell him I'll call the police and explain why I drew my weapon. (original reply: I hoped we'd mutually agree to forget it but realize *I* must be 1st to call it in to protect myself as much as possible.)

    Gotta say, I wouldnt have much control of the situation after the initial reaction. Cops will do what they do, guy will say his piece. Bystanders will have their input.



    That is the correct response. If you do not call the police and we get the call of a man with a gun from the "victim", and you leave the scene, and he gives a description and tag number of your vehicle, and we see your vehicle, you are not going to like the way we stop your vehicle to talk to you.
    marcclarke likes this.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

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  9. #23
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    In Florida, you might be in a world of hurt. Aggravated assault with a firearm carries a mandatory three year prison sentence....

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  10. #24
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    In thinking about this, I've tried to put myself in your shoes (given that I look more like predator than prey, that tends to skew my view). However, no matter who you are, I believe that you should only present lethal force when presented with lethal force. The down side is that you're on the reactive side, the upside is that you don't hesitate to execute.
    __________________________________
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  11. #25
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    In Florida, you might be in a world of hurt. Aggravated assault with a firearm carries a mandatory three year prison sentence....
    That's a key point. I don't know Iowa law in this case, but in Florida, pointing your gun at someone without cause is 3 years in the slammer, no exceptions.

    However, the offense has to be assault, and that means you pointing the gun at someone as part of some conflict in which you are aggressing. In this scenario, you are drawing defensively, which is allowed under Castle Doctrine. A fine point, but a very critical one.

    The way I train for this exact situation is to turn my strong side away from the threat and get my hand on the firearm. Not drawn yet. If the person makes a hinky, furtive move of some sort, I can draw and hold it behind my leg, pointed downward.

    Rule 2 of firearm safety applies here and it is the correct answer to lima's scenario: do not point a gun at something you aren't ready to shoot. No matter the threat, if no weapon has been presented, you shouldn't be pointing your gun at a person. You can have it drown, in the "down ready" position. No matter how fast he is with a gun or knife, from down-ready, you can present and fire less than a second.

    So I acknowledge the bad draw in this case, but I don't accept actually covering the person with the muzzle. This one begins with me holding the gun, it's pointed down and maybe he got of glimpse of it and now holds up his hands saying "don't shoot" or something and I know see he was just fishing for his car keys because he was parked next to me.

    I would then let him make the call on what happens next, hopefully we just part ways.
    That's my solution here. Put the gun away and smile and engage the fellow in conversation. Let him know that he'd scared the bejezus out of you. Flatter his ego by playing up that he was a very threatening presence, etc. Talk about crime in parking lots, etc. If you can him laughing at the humor of the situation, everybody just goes home as this was a simple mistake. I wouldn't call LEO because no crime was committed.

    Muzzle control is the name of this game.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  12. #26
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    INccwchris no offense taken. Should have been fair and included Air Force PJ's in there though.

    Semper Fi Mac
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  13. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post

    1911PKR just wanted to point out your statement about your lawyer pointing out the bad guys previous crimes. It won't happen. Prior bad acts, arrests or convictions, are deemed prejudicial in the legal system. As far as anyone is concerned the guy was returning from church where he fed the homeless hamsters of the world while knitting sweaters for the elderly when you drew your weapon and threatened him.
    Sorry tacman... with all do respect, you should watch a good defense attorney in action. They don't know what "prejudicial" means. They WILL paint a picture of the BG that leaves nothing in question about their past convictions or even the fact that he eats children for breakfast and soils his pants 3 times a day. That said, a prosecutor will paint you as a "gun nut" and your training will come into play. Every instructor you took classes from will be summoned to appear and testify as to what a "great student" you were. Every good ( and bad) decision you ever made in life will be game.

    The less you say to the responding officer(if one is even called), the better off you are.
    "Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton

  14. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    I wouldn't stop until I was on the other side of my car to put the groceries in,hence there would be a steel buffer,if he then makes his move to come around the car to get at me I can prove intent
    You're turning your back on a threat developing quicker than you can get to the other side of your car.

    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    Nice one Lima.

    If I react 'correctly' I will be moving as I draw. In this case, around the front of my vehicle to put the engine block between me and the guy. When I recognize that he's (not likely) a threat, I lower my weapon but keep moving until vehicle is between us.

    I apologize and explain that I was in fear for my life. Which would be the truth. After that I have to see where he takes it. Edit: I tell him I'll call the police and explain why I drew my weapon. (original reply: I hoped we'd mutually agree to forget it but realize *I* must be 1st to call it in to protect myself as much as possible.)

    Gotta say, I wouldnt have much control of the situation after the initial reaction. Cops will do what they do, guy will say his piece. Bystanders will have their input.


    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    First of all great topic.

    Sig guy is correct, Furtive movement is the legal term that would cover this scenario.

    "A furtive movement in such cases is a movement reasonably consistent with going for a weapon and not reasonably consistent with anything else under the circumstances.

    "The law does not demand that your perceived antagonist have a real weapon in order for you to employ lethal force in self defense. It only demands that his actions create in your mind a reasonable and prudent belief that he has a weapon. If he is close enough to employ such a weapon, and if his actions are consistent with an armed person trying to kill you (Diallo turned suddenly and thrust the hand with the black object toward the officers), then the requirements have been met for you to justifiably use deadly force in order to defend your own life."


    Now the issues begin. I would call the police and have them respond. I assure you if he does not call right then he will call later after talking to friends and family and report you as the crazed gunman in the parking lot. If the other person does not want to stick around great better for me. Get a description and LPN is possible.
    This is great!

    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    This is one of those hair-splitters which can't be thoroughly answered by reading a description in a few sentences, one isn't able to see and sense the actual scenario. Everyone's mental vision of this will differ somewhat producing different answers. Good exercise though.
    It's clear enough: perception of force escalation to the point of deadly opponent inside your zone and comes the furtive movement. The "mental vision" is the same as seeing a lethal (or grave) threat coming at you. The scenario is, "Oops, no threat".
    Deadly threats are like John Houseman used to say about opportunities - they don't walk up, bite you in the rear, and say, "I'm here".

    To answer the post, definitely call the cops. It doesn't have to involve crime to involve the law.
    Americans understood the right of self-preservation as permitting a citizen to repel force by force
    when the intervention of society... may be too late to prevent an injury.
    -Blackstone’s Commentaries 145–146, n. 42 (1803) in District of Columbia v. Heller, 554 U.S. 570 (2008)

  15. #29
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    "Sorry, I thought you were going to attack me". Call the police and say I thought someone was following me and was going to attack me. I was afraid for my life. I have a CHL and drew my handgun. He said he was just getting his keys. I don't know if it's true, but he's gone now.
    marcclarke likes this.

  16. #30
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    I would call the police, tell the truth (that I thought I was being attacked) and let the chips fall where they may.


    It would really depend allot on who the BG was, if he stuck around, if he had a rap sheet and if he really was armed. It would also depend a great deal on the officers disposition.
    It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.

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