Aftermath of Premature Draw

Hopefully (best case), no harm--no foul; you apologise profusely and the issue's over. You learn a valuable lesson in separating real SD from perceived SD.

Technically (worst case), with no legitimate threat on your self, you have commited assault by pulling the firearm. Too many refuse to accept or deny that possibility.

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Originally Posted by shockwave

Why did you trim my quote? Here's the part you intentionally removed, for reasons I do not understand:



The question I am responding to, which may or may not be what you are talking about, is the matter of whether drawing and pointing a firearm at another person in error will, by necessity, invoke the mandatory 3-year prison sentence. According to the Florida statute, no, it doesn't do that.

As an example, in the information packet you get with your FL CWL, they cite the case of a woman who was arguing with a neighbor. She got angry during some dispute about lawn watering or such, and drew her gun. She's doing 3 years hard time right now.

Somebody's following you in a parking lot and starting to act aggressively in a threatening manner and you draw, that's a different situation. So a decision about whether or not to call and report the incident depends on whether you think the person involved might retaliate. That's really going to depend on how they respond. It'd be a good idea to talk with the person and explain what happened and see if you can resolve it yourself without involving LEO. If in doubt, you'll have to call, but that's a worst-case outcome.

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There was no trimming. When you quote yourself, it will not be added to a subsequent thread. Do you notice how your posts have no reference to the user-name you are quoting? Use reply with quote so your thread can be followed.

In any case, Iowa law is not the same as Florida or Missouri. We are talking only a scenario but it does bring to light several differences in state law. Brandishing is not a felony in many states. An attorney would have to prove more that simple assault as well. A mandatory 3 year sentence in Florida? I'm not up on that one.

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A mandatory 3 year sentence in Florida? I'm not up on that one.

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Yes, they're really serious. Brandishing here is punished harshly and they are very firm on the "no exceptions" policy. That's why I took an interest in this question - it's deadly important because you absolutely have to know the law or else risk jail time. The point that applies to the OP's scenario is that drawing was a reactive move. You drew because of what the other person did, and you drew because you felt threatened. Florida law allows that and does not prosecute if the draw was in error (as long as you meet the "reasonable person" standard).

There are two things you're defending against here: 1) the potential threat by the unknown guy with unknown intentions in the parking lot and 2) the potential ramifications of drawing without real cause.

Now, those who have castle doctrine / stand your ground on their sides may have a different view. But I have to ask: If you really feel your life is in danger, why are you even bothering with the groceries? Why haven't you dropped them and booked?

I don't just mean fleeing in sheep-like fear. But if alarms really are going off in your head, why aren't you immediately seeking cover, groceries be damned? Why are you even stopping at your car if you've gone Orange or Red?

I think it would be easier to demonstrate fear for one's life if you had hunkered down behind a vehicle a couple of rows over--with or without gun drawn--than if you had simultaneously been attempting to put the eggs and milk away while drawing on a guy reaching for his 1) gun or 2) keys.

To be sure, you might feel silly having dumped your dinner over a guy just getting into his car. But that's probably better than having drawn on an innocent. And if he wasn't so innocent? Well, wouldn't you rather engage from a position of cover? In scenarios like these, I think the first thing to ask yourself is what would you do if you were unarmed. Moving away from a potential threat is probably tops on the list.

I've been in a situation very much like the OP's scenario. I was walking near Pioneer Square in Seattle fairly late at night. Was mid February, so I had my subcompact in my coat pocket.

A rather scruffy looking guy was pacing me about 10 yards behind. . . I would speed up, so would he. I slowed down, he would too. After we got farther down the street, away from the crowds, he started gaining on me and reached around behind his back. I sped up a little, and before he could adjust to my new pace, I sat on a short concrete wall and looked at him, made eye contact. He didn't know it, but my hand was firmly on the grip of my subcompact with the grip and end of the slide out of my pocket. He walked past, still looking at me like he was sizing me up but didn't stop. Was he being malicious, or was he just in a hurry? I don't know, but I was. . . concerned.

If it had been warmer out (no coat), would I have drawn? Maybe. I was new to concealed carry at the time, and jumpier than I am now.

If I had drawn, I think I would have simply growled "Walk away" and waited to soil myself until he was out of sight. At the time, I wouldn't have called LEOs. Now, I probably would, just to be on record. He had no way to ID me, no car nearby, and my big coat would make a clear description difficult.

At the same time, I have been in some scenarios where it is at night, and I am "following" someone, but really, we're just walking to the same local area where our cars are parked. In those situations, I always feel a bit like a creep, and can sometimes sense (on some people) that I'm probably setting some of their alarms off. I don't know what to do except to try to stay in the light and walk loudly so it's not as if I'm trying to sneak up on them ... something I don't do.

I've read the entire thread and can only ask...who's so jumpy that they draw their weapon on a mere notion of a perceived threat?

I have been in situations as described in the OP. Simply placing your hand on or near you gun is sufficient as you assertain whether or not drawing your weapon is neccessary.

I had to draw my gun several nights ago. I was in my driveway well past dark and I was getting something from my trunk. I heard the unmistakable sound of paws...big paws...running up my gravel driveway towards me. The solid sound, the speed ...all told me that this was something bearing down on me fast!

Let's break and apply this to this thread...

At this time I knew.something was barreling down on me. It was a personal threat to my safety because there was absolutely no reason for anything to be running around my yard at that hour.

Ok...so I simultaniously drew my gun with my left hand while my right hand brought up my LED. As I prepared myself to open fire on a lunging coyote/wild dog etc by bringing up my gun to the level that the threat was coming from...I hit my LED. At the very last second, as my finger began to squeeze the trigger, I recognized a big goofy Marmaduke looking dog from up the road. He almost got himself shot.


My point with that story is....I drew on the sound of imposing danger..and something running at me, full speed, on private property ...in the middle of the night. A scenerio where it couldnt or shouldnt have been some innocent merely passing by.

If anyone were going around drawing their gun on every Tom, dick and Harry that walked too close to them in broad daylight, in a public parking lot, during normal business hours...they should be in jail and stripped of their carry permit.

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Originally Posted by Guantes

Shockwave (quote)

"The way I train for this exact situation is to turn my strong side away from the threat and get my hand on the firearm. Not drawn yet. If the person makes a hinky, furtive move of some sort, I can draw and hold it behind my leg, pointed downward."

Most aspects of this have been covered so I will limit my comments to the above. I also like and use the above. It has been my experience my self and working with others that the clearing of the garment and obtaining a grip on your gun generally reduces draw/first shot times by around fifty per cent. In addition to preparation for a response the turning action shields your weapon from view thereby eliminating brandishing claims.

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I'm wondering (because I recall reading it on the forum somewhere I believe), is it considered brandishing if the gun stays in the holster?

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Originally Posted by Hummel12345

I'm wondering (because I recall reading it on the forum somewhere I believe), is it considered brandishing if the gun stays in the holster?

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Brandishing is different from locality to locality, but it's generally displaying in a threatening manner. It could count if the firearm is in the holster if you manage to be threatening with it, put your hand on the grip in a threatening manner, etc. If carrying concealed, I would imagine pulling up your cover garment and tucking it behind the firearm while acting in a threatening manner could be considered brandishing.

While there are undoubtedly variations on how "brandishing" statutes are written, most involve a "display" of the weapon. If a weapon is not seen, how can it be displayed. All that is seen is a particular type of movement suggesting a weapon. That movement could be done with or without the presence of a weapon with the ability to descern between the two virtually nonexistent.

Hmm. Don't care what the rules are. Anybody that carries a gun like this really need to go back to CC 101.

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Originally Posted by limatunes

He's still doing nothing but walking the same direction you are walking though he seems to be just as aware of you as you are of him.

You reach your car and are about to put your things into it when you see him make a move.

Orange blasts into Red and you swing around, gun in hand, to find yourself pointing a gun at a startled and terrified young man with nothing in his hands.

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You are required to make reasonable decisions based on your training and the information available to you (by direct observation and reasonable inference) at the time.

What does your training consist of, and why did your training tell you this was an assault in progress?

Further...question if your training is applicable to your situation in terms of society or law. If you live in urban VA...an area more aligned with Boston than Boise, well...

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Originally Posted by limatunes

What do you do?

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You have already determined what we would do. Our response is not relevant.

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Originally Posted by limatunes

Orange blasts into Red and you swing around, gun in hand, to find yourself pointing a gun at a startled and terrified young man with nothing in his hands.

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A terrified young man? Because he though you were prey and now realized he might have just walked into a blender...or because he was just checking out your...assets?

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Originally Posted by limatunes

Did you make a mistake? Did you preempt an attack?

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You tell me. It's your scenario.

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Originally Posted by limatunes

Do you tell him to get away knowing that he could be nothing more than an innocent guy trying to go home too?

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He can get on the ground with his hands on his head and shut his mouth. He can explain to the police what he was doing when he:

a) was stalking me through the parking area,
b) matching my steps as I tried to loose him by going the long way around,
c) why he made targeting glances toward me,
d) made like he was checking to see if something was still in his waistband,
e) and approached me from a blind spot as I was vulnerable (putting things into the car).

Articulate & observant aren't I...

He may be a lost sheep who was looking for his car and feeling for his phone, and so forth...but it's all in the presentation.

And nothing...NOTHING would be a lie. It would be a presentation of FACTS...Facts favorable to me.

Presented through an attorney who would haul when I call...because me no talkey to policey.

:)

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Originally Posted by limatunes

Knowing that since your gun has come out you are going to call the police do you do so at that very moment or attempt to leave the scene and call from distance?

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My gun. My phone.

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Originally Posted by limatunes

What do you tell the police?

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That this guy tried to jump me as I was putting s...stuff into my car, and I'm really shaken up right now, I don't want to make a further statement...and I called
my lawyer who will be here soon.

Then I shut up, shudder and BREATHE...

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Originally Posted by limatunes

Considering you very well could have just committed assault with a deadly weapon, how do you attempt to keep yourself out of jail? How do you handle this?

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The same way porcupines have sex...

With great care.

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Originally Posted by SIGguy229

.....police use the term "furtive movement"...I think that applies.....

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Good call.

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"A furtive movement in such cases is a movement reasonably consistent with going for a weapon and not reasonably consistent with anything else under the circumstances.

"The law does not demand that your perceived antagonist have a real weapon in order for you to employ lethal force in self defense. It only demands that his actions create in your mind a reasonable and prudent belief that he has a weapon. If he is close enough to employ such a weapon, and if his actions are consistent with an armed person trying to kill you (Diallo turned suddenly and thrust the hand with the black object toward the officers), then the requirements have been met for you to justifiably use deadly force in order to defend your own life."

"Skulking in the Vestibule" by Massad Ayoob

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Originally Posted by livewire9880

Brandishing is different from locality to locality, but it's generally displaying in a threatening manner. It could count if the firearm is in the holster if you manage to be threatening with it, put your hand on the grip in a threatening manner, etc. If carrying concealed, I would imagine pulling up your cover garment and tucking it behind the firearm while acting in a threatening manner could be considered brandishing.

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So if somebody sees your gun because your cover garnment accidentially (read: not in a threataning manner, i.e. revealing the gun and holster) moved and the gun is in the holster, it isn't brandishing? (not related to the posted scenario)

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Originally Posted by Guantes

Shockwave (quote)

Most aspects of this have been covered so I will limit my comments to the above. I also like and use the above. It has been my experience my self and working with others that the clearing of the garment and obtaining a grip on your gun generally reduces draw/first shot times by around fifty per cent. In addition to preparation for a response the turning action shields your weapon from view thereby eliminating brandishing claims.

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This is also an advantage of purse carry, btw. And if done right, can be done inconspicuously.

Many is the time that in just this situation...a parking lot, esp at nite....my purse is in front of my left hip, holster pocket unzipped. Anything alerts me, my hand can be on my 9mm, ready to draw. And no one needs to be the wiser...could just be reaching for my keys.