Aftermath of Premature Draw

This is a discussion on Aftermath of Premature Draw within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Hopefully (best case), no harm--no foul; you apologise profusely and the issue's over. You learn a valuable lesson in separating real SD from perceived SD. ...

Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 46 to 60 of 145
Like Tree16Likes

Thread: Aftermath of Premature Draw

  1. #46
    VIP Member
    Array OldVet's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    S. Florida, north of the Miami mess, south of the Mouse trap
    Posts
    14,598
    Hopefully (best case), no harm--no foul; you apologise profusely and the issue's over. You learn a valuable lesson in separating real SD from perceived SD.

    Technically (worst case), with no legitimate threat on your self, you have commited assault by pulling the firearm. Too many refuse to accept or deny that possibility.
    Retired USAF E-8. Avatar is OldVet from days long gone. Oh, to be young again.
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  2. Remove Ads

  3. #47
    VIP Member
    Array SIGP250's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    MO - Rock Ranch
    Posts
    2,180
    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Why did you trim my quote? Here's the part you intentionally removed, for reasons I do not understand:



    The question I am responding to, which may or may not be what you are talking about, is the matter of whether drawing and pointing a firearm at another person in error will, by necessity, invoke the mandatory 3-year prison sentence. According to the Florida statute, no, it doesn't do that.

    As an example, in the information packet you get with your FL CWL, they cite the case of a woman who was arguing with a neighbor. She got angry during some dispute about lawn watering or such, and drew her gun. She's doing 3 years hard time right now.

    Somebody's following you in a parking lot and starting to act aggressively in a threatening manner and you draw, that's a different situation. So a decision about whether or not to call and report the incident depends on whether you think the person involved might retaliate. That's really going to depend on how they respond. It'd be a good idea to talk with the person and explain what happened and see if you can resolve it yourself without involving LEO. If in doubt, you'll have to call, but that's a worst-case outcome.
    There was no trimming. When you quote yourself, it will not be added to a subsequent thread. Do you notice how your posts have no reference to the user-name you are quoting? Use reply with quote so your thread can be followed.

    In any case, Iowa law is not the same as Florida or Missouri. We are talking only a scenario but it does bring to light several differences in state law. Brandishing is not a felony in many states. An attorney would have to prove more that simple assault as well. A mandatory 3 year sentence in Florida? I'm not up on that one.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

  4. #48
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    1,801
    A mandatory 3 year sentence in Florida? I'm not up on that one.
    Yes, they're really serious. Brandishing here is punished harshly and they are very firm on the "no exceptions" policy. That's why I took an interest in this question - it's deadly important because you absolutely have to know the law or else risk jail time. The point that applies to the OP's scenario is that drawing was a reactive move. You drew because of what the other person did, and you drew because you felt threatened. Florida law allows that and does not prosecute if the draw was in error (as long as you meet the "reasonable person" standard).
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  5. #49
    New Member Array JT1JT1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    US
    Posts
    6
    There are two things you're defending against here: 1) the potential threat by the unknown guy with unknown intentions in the parking lot and 2) the potential ramifications of drawing without real cause.

    Now, those who have castle doctrine / stand your ground on their sides may have a different view. But I have to ask: If you really feel your life is in danger, why are you even bothering with the groceries? Why haven't you dropped them and booked?

    I don't just mean fleeing in sheep-like fear. But if alarms really are going off in your head, why aren't you immediately seeking cover, groceries be damned? Why are you even stopping at your car if you've gone Orange or Red?

    I think it would be easier to demonstrate fear for one's life if you had hunkered down behind a vehicle a couple of rows over--with or without gun drawn--than if you had simultaneously been attempting to put the eggs and milk away while drawing on a guy reaching for his 1) gun or 2) keys.

    To be sure, you might feel silly having dumped your dinner over a guy just getting into his car. But that's probably better than having drawn on an innocent. And if he wasn't so innocent? Well, wouldn't you rather engage from a position of cover? In scenarios like these, I think the first thing to ask yourself is what would you do if you were unarmed. Moving away from a potential threat is probably tops on the list.

  6. #50
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    2,014
    I've been in a situation very much like the OP's scenario. I was walking near Pioneer Square in Seattle fairly late at night. Was mid February, so I had my subcompact in my coat pocket.

    A rather scruffy looking guy was pacing me about 10 yards behind. . . I would speed up, so would he. I slowed down, he would too. After we got farther down the street, away from the crowds, he started gaining on me and reached around behind his back. I sped up a little, and before he could adjust to my new pace, I sat on a short concrete wall and looked at him, made eye contact. He didn't know it, but my hand was firmly on the grip of my subcompact with the grip and end of the slide out of my pocket. He walked past, still looking at me like he was sizing me up but didn't stop. Was he being malicious, or was he just in a hurry? I don't know, but I was. . . concerned.

    If it had been warmer out (no coat), would I have drawn? Maybe. I was new to concealed carry at the time, and jumpier than I am now.

    If I had drawn, I think I would have simply growled "Walk away" and waited to soil myself until he was out of sight. At the time, I wouldn't have called LEOs. Now, I probably would, just to be on record. He had no way to ID me, no car nearby, and my big coat would make a clear description difficult.

  7. #51
    Ex Member Array JOHNSMITH's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Location
    somewhere
    Posts
    1,726
    At the same time, I have been in some scenarios where it is at night, and I am "following" someone, but really, we're just walking to the same local area where our cars are parked. In those situations, I always feel a bit like a creep, and can sometimes sense (on some people) that I'm probably setting some of their alarms off. I don't know what to do except to try to stay in the light and walk loudly so it's not as if I'm trying to sneak up on them ... something I don't do.

  8. #52
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2007
    Location
    Tennessee
    Posts
    539
    I've read the entire thread and can only ask...who's so jumpy that they draw their weapon on a mere notion of a perceived threat?

    I have been in situations as described in the OP. Simply placing your hand on or near you gun is sufficient as you assertain whether or not drawing your weapon is neccessary.

    I had to draw my gun several nights ago. I was in my driveway well past dark and I was getting something from my trunk. I heard the unmistakable sound of paws...big paws...running up my gravel driveway towards me. The solid sound, the speed ...all told me that this was something bearing down on me fast!

    Let's break and apply this to this thread...

    At this time I knew.something was barreling down on me. It was a personal threat to my safety because there was absolutely no reason for anything to be running around my yard at that hour.

    Ok...so I simultaniously drew my gun with my left hand while my right hand brought up my LED. As I prepared myself to open fire on a lunging coyote/wild dog etc by bringing up my gun to the level that the threat was coming from...I hit my LED. At the very last second, as my finger began to squeeze the trigger, I recognized a big goofy Marmaduke looking dog from up the road. He almost got himself shot.


    My point with that story is....I drew on the sound of imposing danger..and something running at me, full speed, on private property ...in the middle of the night. A scenerio where it couldnt or shouldnt have been some innocent merely passing by.

    If anyone were going around drawing their gun on every Tom, dick and Harry that walked too close to them in broad daylight, in a public parking lot, during normal business hours...they should be in jail and stripped of their carry permit.

  9. #53
    Member Array Hummel12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Shockwave (quote)

    "The way I train for this exact situation is to turn my strong side away from the threat and get my hand on the firearm. Not drawn yet. If the person makes a hinky, furtive move of some sort, I can draw and hold it behind my leg, pointed downward."

    Most aspects of this have been covered so I will limit my comments to the above. I also like and use the above. It has been my experience my self and working with others that the clearing of the garment and obtaining a grip on your gun generally reduces draw/first shot times by around fifty per cent. In addition to preparation for a response the turning action shields your weapon from view thereby eliminating brandishing claims.
    I'm wondering (because I recall reading it on the forum somewhere I believe), is it considered brandishing if the gun stays in the holster?

  10. #54
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2010
    Location
    Washington State
    Posts
    2,014
    Quote Originally Posted by Hummel12345 View Post
    I'm wondering (because I recall reading it on the forum somewhere I believe), is it considered brandishing if the gun stays in the holster?
    Brandishing is different from locality to locality, but it's generally displaying in a threatening manner. It could count if the firearm is in the holster if you manage to be threatening with it, put your hand on the grip in a threatening manner, etc. If carrying concealed, I would imagine pulling up your cover garment and tucking it behind the firearm while acting in a threatening manner could be considered brandishing.

  11. #55
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    While there are undoubtedly variations on how "brandishing" statutes are written, most involve a "display" of the weapon. If a weapon is not seen, how can it be displayed. All that is seen is a particular type of movement suggesting a weapon. That movement could be done with or without the presence of a weapon with the ability to descern between the two virtually nonexistent.

  12. #56
    Distinguished Member Array Knightrider's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    MI
    Posts
    1,316
    Hmm. Don't care what the rules are. Anybody that carries a gun like this really need to go back to CC 101.
    Glock: G22 .40 S&W and G23 .40 S&W Sig Sauer: P938 9mm Smith and Wesson: Model 437 .38 Spl and Sigma SW9VE 9mm

  13. #57
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    I don't post here anymore...Sorry
    Posts
    2,333
    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    He's still doing nothing but walking the same direction you are walking though he seems to be just as aware of you as you are of him.

    You reach your car and are about to put your things into it when you see him make a move.

    Orange blasts into Red and you swing around, gun in hand, to find yourself pointing a gun at a startled and terrified young man with nothing in his hands.
    You are required to make reasonable decisions based on your training and the information available to you (by direct observation and reasonable inference) at the time.

    What does your training consist of, and why did your training tell you this was an assault in progress?

    Further...question if your training is applicable to your situation in terms of society or law. If you live in urban VA...an area more aligned with Boston than Boise, well...

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    What do you do?
    You have already determined what we would do. Our response is not relevant.

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post

    Orange blasts into Red and you swing around, gun in hand, to find yourself pointing a gun at a startled and terrified young man with nothing in his hands.
    A terrified young man? Because he though you were prey and now realized he might have just walked into a blender...or because he was just checking out your...assets?

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Did you make a mistake? Did you preempt an attack?
    You tell me. It's your scenario.


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Do you tell him to get away knowing that he could be nothing more than an innocent guy trying to go home too?
    He can get on the ground with his hands on his head and shut his mouth. He can explain to the police what he was doing when he:

    a) was stalking me through the parking area,
    b) matching my steps as I tried to loose him by going the long way around,
    c) why he made targeting glances toward me,
    d) made like he was checking to see if something was still in his waistband,
    e) and approached me from a blind spot as I was vulnerable (putting things into the car).

    Articulate & observant aren't I...

    He may be a lost sheep who was looking for his car and feeling for his phone, and so forth...but it's all in the presentation.

    And nothing...NOTHING would be a lie. It would be a presentation of FACTS...Facts favorable to me.

    Presented through an attorney who would haul when I call...because me no talkey to policey.

    :)

    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Knowing that since your gun has come out you are going to call the police do you do so at that very moment or attempt to leave the scene and call from distance?
    My gun. My phone.


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    What do you tell the police?
    That this guy tried to jump me as I was putting s...stuff into my car, and I'm really shaken up right now, I don't want to make a further statement...and I called
    my lawyer who will be here soon.

    Then I shut up, shudder and BREATHE...


    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    Considering you very well could have just committed assault with a deadly weapon, how do you attempt to keep yourself out of jail? How do you handle this?
    The same way porcupines have sex...

    With great care.

  14. #58
    Senior Member Array highvoltage's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NH
    Posts
    1,121
    Quote Originally Posted by SIGguy229 View Post
    .....police use the term "furtive movement"...I think that applies.....
    Good call.

    "A furtive movement in such cases is a movement reasonably consistent with going for a weapon and not reasonably consistent with anything else under the circumstances.

    "The law does not demand that your perceived antagonist have a real weapon in order for you to employ lethal force in self defense. It only demands that his actions create in your mind a reasonable and prudent belief that he has a weapon. If he is close enough to employ such a weapon, and if his actions are consistent with an armed person trying to kill you (Diallo turned suddenly and thrust the hand with the black object toward the officers), then the requirements have been met for you to justifiably use deadly force in order to defend your own life."

    "Skulking in the Vestibule" by Massad Ayoob

  15. #59
    Member Array Hummel12345's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2010
    Location
    Germany
    Posts
    18
    Quote Originally Posted by livewire9880 View Post
    Brandishing is different from locality to locality, but it's generally displaying in a threatening manner. It could count if the firearm is in the holster if you manage to be threatening with it, put your hand on the grip in a threatening manner, etc. If carrying concealed, I would imagine pulling up your cover garment and tucking it behind the firearm while acting in a threatening manner could be considered brandishing.
    So if somebody sees your gun because your cover garnment accidentially (read: not in a threataning manner, i.e. revealing the gun and holster) moved and the gun is in the holster, it isn't brandishing? (not related to the posted scenario)

  16. #60
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    Outside Seattle, WA
    Posts
    3,309
    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Shockwave (quote)

    Most aspects of this have been covered so I will limit my comments to the above. I also like and use the above. It has been my experience my self and working with others that the clearing of the garment and obtaining a grip on your gun generally reduces draw/first shot times by around fifty per cent. In addition to preparation for a response the turning action shields your weapon from view thereby eliminating brandishing claims.
    This is also an advantage of purse carry, btw. And if done right, can be done inconspicuously.

    Many is the time that in just this situation...a parking lot, esp at nite....my purse is in front of my left hip, holster pocket unzipped. Anything alerts me, my hand can be on my 9mm, ready to draw. And no one needs to be the wiser...could just be reaching for my keys.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

Page 4 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678 ... LastLast

Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. M&P9c Premature Mag Release Update
    By Striker543 in forum Defensive Carry Guns
    Replies: 11
    Last Post: October 23rd, 2010, 11:32 AM
  2. The Aftermath
    By tigerwoods in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: August 11th, 2010, 02:59 PM
  3. Aftermath of the Election Day Aftermath
    By Tally XD in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: October 30th, 2008, 11:44 PM
  4. Fights: to draw or not to draw.
    By Serenity in forum Carry & Defensive Scenarios
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: August 9th, 2007, 02:24 PM
  5. Will Wolf ammo cause premature wear on my 1911?
    By Ridge Runner in forum Defensive Ammunition & Ballistics
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: September 1st, 2005, 11:08 PM

Search tags for this page

aftermath of premature

,

ccw draw on potential threat

,

ccw drew

,

ccw premature draw

,

draw or don't draw senarios for ccw holders

,

drew my weapon

,

florida ccw threat 5 year mandatory jail time

,

massad ayoob skulking in the vestibule

,

mistake pistology limatunes

,

premature aftermaths

,

skulking in the vestibule ayoob

,

who is marian limatunes?

Click on a term to search for related topics.