Originally Posted by shockwave
Originally Posted by limatunes
I'm not going to argue with you. I enjoy a good debate, but you are coming off as argumentative.
I am fallible. I make many mistakes. I learn from each one. I take my role as an armed citizen deadly serious. I, personally, will not draw on another human being unless I know without a shadow of a doubt that my life is in danger. I can't make that any clearer without an illustration included.
And yes, if someone walking to their car sees four thugs sitting on a car four cars over and they unholster their handgun...YES, THEY ARE OVERREACTING. First, thugs? Stereotype much? They've made no aggressive moves, made no life threatening actions.
If someone sees these thugs and is so afraid, someone should turn around and go back into the store from which they came and call the police.
Somone that petrified of people for no explainable reason should seek some sort of counseling to assist in building self confidence. In the meantime, they have no business carrying a loaded weapon. They are clearly too unstable to be trusted with such a responsibility.
Like I said...I'm not going to argue with you. We both clearly have our own positions on this matter. We can simply agree to disagree and move along peacefully.
Personally, I call bs on this ("100% certaintly never have, never will.")
And even so, Lima *set ground rules for her scenario*...very clear ground rules. Perhaps they were only for the rest of us that somehow, someday, may be imperfect. The assumption of the scenario was that it was (most likely) not necessary to draw, a presuposition. (Again for those of us not perfect).
BTW, if an adult male does manage to calmly but steadily close the distance on me, somehow, someway (& if there was real intent on his part, he might be able to)....and I cant see where what his hand's 'furtive motion' is doing.....I will be well within my rights to draw my weapon.
Originally Posted by limatunes
Originally Posted by 9MMare
Let's keep it civil and not get personal. Best advice I can offer.
Thanks. I appreciate it.
Originally Posted by EB31
Apologies for the sarcasm. I'm sure there are ways to express the same in more polite terms.
Content would remain the same.
So far (though taking a few bunny trails) this thread has remained civil. Let's keep it that way.
Keep things on topic, people.
Yes mam....I'll stick to the premise that there's no "preemptive" draw unless you prefer to get shot. Here's what I've learned. in gunfights....
Originally Posted by limatunes
Don't fear the law, rock the gun out your holster and be ready to fire from the hip. Keep the gun close to your body and bring it up close to your chest. If you get that far into a gun fight, push the gun straight out toward the BG and keep pullin' the trigger. Your average CCW holder will not present a weapon or pull the trigger too early. Quite the contrary....
The bottom line is , you either have a justifiable shooting or you don't , that will be decided rather quickly by LEO and the prosecutor.
I would submit that nearly anyone who has spent any significant amount of time in LE has done preemptive draws on multiple occasions.
Originally Posted by Guantes
Heck, when I come home from work, if the trash cans are out of place, I'll do a premptive draw and scan my yard before working my way into the house.
The premptive draw is why I'm a HUGE fan of pocket carry. It appears non-threatening, but allows one to have a gun in hand.
I have to agree with Guantes on this. There were many times while on the street my weapon was out of the holster and placed behind my leg or hidden in someway just because something did not feel right. Preemptive? Who knows but it made me feel better.
As I have seen in life and has been said on other posts on this site be very, very careful about saying "I would never......." once you get that mindset drilled into your head the one time in life that you have to do that one thing that you said you would never do you will hesitate or react incorrectly and it could cost you your life.
There is no flip chart to tell you how to respond to every situation and there is no instruction manual in a self defense situation. The situation will be different for everyone simply because there is a different person involved in each scenario. What you perceive as a threat I may not and vis versa but each person must judge for themselves how they would react or what they see as a threat to their safety.
EB31, learn the preemptive draw, learn to cherish it - for it may save your life.
Never say "never", and never say "always"
To the OP,
I would probably tell the other party to stay where they are, and that I am calling the cops. I would be happy to explain to them (cops) that I was walking through thet Fred Meyer parking lot, I observed a man who appeared to be following me, as I approached my vehicle he made a sudden move behind me and I drew my weapon to defend myself. I never pointed the weapon directly at him, and called LE as soon as possible. If they started digging further than the facts as I just told them, then state that I dont feel comfortable making any other statments, and if they want to ask more questions they will have to wait for my attorney.
I would rather deal with the legal process than risk NOT doing a preemptive draw when *something* told me I was in danger. I have learned to listen to that little voice.
Excellent post Lima!
Love this thread. Sounds like I am getting the answers to my own thread "10PM and I am walking with my wife". In this thread, the supposed perp is following me (at some distance--I assume). In my thread, I assumed I am facing a perp or perps who are standing a distance in front of me or are walking toward me. Great replies on this thread. I still keep thinking that my action point is at least starting to speak in a LOUD voice at that magic 21 feet or maybe a bit farther and, in my case, having my little 380 in the palm of my hand. Just like you can be walking toward or behind someone--guess what?--someone can be doing the same to you---this thread goes on because we are all human, all thinking, and, with situational awareness, are trying to be prepared for something that our intelligence is telling us has an strange and uncomfortable element to it. I do not think "whirling around" or "facing front and center" and confronting a following or approaching individual with a drawn pointed firearm, who has done nothing wrong, is appropriate without at least some loud words of concern by you. Just sayin.
I say this with all sort of good intentions, and best wishes that you life a long and happy life free from injury, pain and any sort of bad stuff...
Originally Posted by kelcarry
Go get worked over by someone with a rubber knife in an unscripted force on force situation in which you actually have to interact with people as if it were real life. You will find that the magic 21 foot rule doesn't actually exist.
The Tuller Dill (yes, I have the tape of surviving edged weapons...) was created for justification of the aftermath of shooting someone armed with a contact weapon rather than a tactical concept for actual employment.
The Tuller Drill's use goes like this:
You are interacting with someone. They produce an edge weapon. You throw your coffee at him, scramble, move offline and shoot him to the ground. Questions are asked "Why did you shoot this man with a knife when he was not able to cut you?"
Answer "See Tuller Drill and associated research."
Big Sigh. Everyone is now happy.
The question of why you shot someone with a knife is taken care of by a recognized set of data points and so forth.
It may be a guideline...but as to a magic number?
A shoot at 30 feet can be kosher, a shoot at 5 feet could be bad.
Go get sliced, stabbed and otherwise worked over in force on force to see for yourself.
Leave the magic numbers to Harry Dresden.
I think you are going to have to call the police and explain what happened. I would really like to get in my car and drive away after a situation like this but some of the previous posters are correct that if he calls 911 you are going to be in a lot of trouble. You need to call first.
Also, just because this guy doesn't have anything in his hands now doesn't mean he didn't have bad intentions. He might have thought better of drawing his knife after he saw your gun, or he may have thought he only needed his bare hands, or maybe his buddy hiding a couple cars away chickened out.
If you are 100% confident you will never draw to early in a situation with poor lighting you are run a high risk of drawing to late, because whoever draws first at close range wins.