September 20th, 2010 10:42 AM
An expansion of some personal thoughts on what MitchellCT posted.
I see Tueller is a general concept, not a specific rule. It can be used in more personal way. The way that is done is by the exercise of personal attributes against the concept. Using your personal carry method, holster, clothing,etc, speed of presentation, accuracy of rapid fire and atheletic ability to avoid contact against a live aggressor (FoF) will narrow the broad concept to a more personalized scope. This will suggest distances and circumstances that are within your abilities based on your personal attributes. It will not be exact as the attributes of each aggressor will vary, but it will be closer than just using the general concept.
September 20th, 2010 12:16 PM
Hey mitchellCT: just using the 21 ft as a magic number--there is a creditable distance at which you should act and a ridiculous distance that you should not act. If 21 ft provokes sarcasm on your part, I would think that 60 or 70 ft would provoke similar sarcasm and dismay if someone feels that pointing a firearm at someone at that distance is appropriate just because they "feel" a tingly feeling as someone is walking down the street near them. Got a number in mind? Is it more than 21 ft and less than 60 ft? What is it? Remember they are just walking like you are and may have similar feelings about you, especially if you start some kind of defensive/offensive maneuver without any provocation.
September 20th, 2010 12:22 PM
Wow good scenario, and since we have to play along, and can't dodge the issue by, "I would have turned to face him/changed direction, or headed back to the store/before he made his move" I'll say I apologize, tell him I was afraid he was someone dangerous, and that I will be calling the police to explain my actions. He is welcome to stay there, at a safe distance until they arrive if he desires. As others have said, its important to be the first caller in these cases.
I wonder what the average man on the street innocent bystander would do in such a case. TO bad there's no way to do a realistic survey of a few people at Walmart and gather some statistics.
September 20th, 2010 12:26 PM
These are pretty much my thoughts on the matter.
Originally Posted by iowahapkido
You just don't KNOW if the guy was really intending to do you harm or not and it's better to err on the side of caution. Did you draw too soon? MAYBE.. but maybe it was just in time to keep him from drawing on you. You may never find out but at least you will have the rest of your long life to wonder about it.
I think this is a situation where your ability to articulate comes in BIG TIME. If you were alerted enough to feel the need to draw, tell that story to the police when you call them and then keep quiet.
September 20th, 2010 12:29 PM
Thinking about my reply above and usmc3169's and others, by admitting to the 911 operator that we just drew our weapon are we giving to much information? Is there someway describe this situation that is not an admission of brandishing? I wouldn't want to make a MWAG call and have officers coming into the scene "hot" expecting the worse, but I would rather have my lawyer explain that I drew because I was in fear for my life, instead of having it on the 911 tape.
Originally Posted by usmc3169
I guess that might be the best thing, to go on record on the 911 tape as "Iwas in fear for my life so I drew my weapon in response the the percieved threat."
September 20th, 2010 01:13 PM
Someone was following you for a while and made a threatening move at you while reaching behind him. you were in fear for your life/safety... drew your weapon and they ran away?
Originally Posted by TedBeau
September 20th, 2010 01:32 PM
I would likely do several other things instead of what is laid out in the scenario, however, being true to the scenario in the post, I am asked how I would respond if the event played out as described in the the original post. So within those narrow confines of the original scenario, I would likely respond in the following manner.
I was in fear of my life... When I drew my gun, he backed down so I did not shoot him, but he made me feel my life was in jeopardy. This has been a harrowing experience and I would like to consult with an attorney before I say anything else. As a matter of fact, I'm not feeling very well, can you call me an ambulance.
You do not know how responding law enforcement officers are going to view such a situation. If this guy was totally innocent then I really screwed the pooch by drawing down on him and that can very well bring a charge of "aggravated assault" or "assault with a deadly weapon." Sure the police may be understanding and cut you a break for making an honest mistake, but if they have any idea of charging you with a crime, the more you say in the initial statement, you're stuck with on record.
Even though I didn't shoot him, I still want to say as little as possible to police before talking with an attorney, yet I still want to convey an assumption that I was in fear of my life. I'm fully aware of what "furtive movements" are however, I feel it is best to let your attorney handle that aspect and help me to formulate a formal statement. Getting convicted of assault with a deadly weapon could result in 3-5 years in prison not to mention losing your gun rights for the rest of your life so It's best to say as little as possible and speak with an attorney as soon as possible before you've already made a case to the police to arrest you.
Hopefully, I will never jump the gun and draw down on someone who doesn't need it, but as the scenario stated, for whatever reason you find yourself in that situation and now you have to deal with it.
In such as situation where I immediately feel like I may have jumped the gun by drawing on an innocent person, my response to responding officers is going to be very similar to the same response I'd have if I actually shot him. I was in fear of my life, and I'd like to speak to an attorney!
"The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."
September 20th, 2010 02:41 PM
Great post, Lima, & very informative discussion.
What I'm taking away from it:
1. If the guy's just standing there now, hands up, I'm telling him that I was in fear for my life & I'm calling the police.
2. When the cops show up, I'm going to keep it simple because I tend to get talkative and apologetic when I'm freaked out, which is exactly what I want to avoid if I want to stay out of court/jail.
Also, I appreciated JT1JT1's advice on avoiding the problem to begin with: react from the get-go as if I was unarmed. Avoided the situation, especially since if it was me I'd likely have two small children with me as well as the groceries. If I see a possible draw in our future, I am doing everything I can to keep me and my kids out of it, dropping the food, returning to the store while making ferocious mama-bear eye contact, whatever. I may even yell at them a bit if there is enough distance -- I'd rather have them think I'm a crazy lady than have to get a gun involved.
When I start to carry for real I will update this to something awesome and clever. Or at least different.
"Zhen ta ma yao ming. Zhu yi". - Wash
September 20th, 2010 03:57 PM
Yelling out in public is generally a good idea Kate. Drawing attention to the situation. I didnt mention it because according to the scenario I drew my gun instead ;-)
Originally Posted by katesbee
And yeah, you feel foolish if it's just some guy not paying attention to personal space, reaching for his car keys. But it's alot better than ending up with an aggrevated assault charge or similar.
This is a very real scenario for women...and I should start a thread on it. I have many questions on the options for handling such a situation. You have kids with you. I have the choice of OC or 9mm or shouting and putting the car between us....or?
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
September 20th, 2010 04:28 PM
Lima's thread title includes the word "premature" but I don't think the draw was at all premature: as the scenario was described there were a number of places where the sense of threat could have dissipated (e.g. where the man could have walked off in a different direction) but did not. As the scenario was described I waited until the last possible moment before inaction on my part could have left me at the mercy of a predator. Since at the time of the draw there was a credible and reasoned potentially deadly threat, and it was the last possible moment, I don't think it was at all premature.
It also seems to me that a lot of the responses interpret "he was scared" as "we wasn't really a threat." I don't agree with this assumption. That the person acted scared does not mean that he isn't or wasn't a threat. I still don't know what kind of person he is, what his intentions or motivations are, whether he has a weapon, whether he has friends, or what he'll do after the initial shock of seeing me with a gun wears off. As far as I'm concerned I came to regard him as a threat because of a sequence of actions he performed and I don't yet have any proof that that assessment is incorrect. Now that I've got the upper hand momentarily it's certainly not time to pull the trigger, but it's also premature to stand down from red alert.
Certainly there were stages in the scenario where I COULD have made different choices (like walking back into the store, or drawing surreptitiously at an earlier moment...) but I agree with Lima that one does not always make optimal self-defense choices continuously throughout their lives. So the scenario seems credible to me.
In the heat of the moment, what matters is what your body knows -- not what your mind knows.
September 20th, 2010 04:59 PM
I think this is the only reason there is so much hate in this thread. . . Lima mentioned it was premature, so everyone's judging based on that. Frankly, I agree that it may not be premature with the facts presented. I might disagree with the "...you swing around, gun in hand, to find yourself pointing a gun at..." part of the story, but I can see the rest of it.
Originally Posted by mfcmb
As I mentioned earlier, I was in a similar situation. I technically didn't have my gun 'drawn', but most of it had cleared my pocket. The only real difference in Lima's hypothetical and my real scenario is that my 'stalker' didn't know a firearm was at the ready. Well, and our gender, I'm less of a candidate for some of the more fear-inducing reasons for stalking.
September 20th, 2010 05:23 PM
I don't understand what "hate" you're referencing.
Originally Posted by livewire9880
"Success is how high you bounce when you hit bottom" Gen. George Patton
September 20th, 2010 05:28 PM
I noticed at least a couple posts of people saying that they would apologize to the person drawn on. Personally, if I were to talk to the person and I'm not saying that I would, I would not apologize.
I would ask them, "Do you know what you did?" . Then in a nonantagonist, educational manner explain to them their actions, their resemblence to criminal activity and how that resulted in my actions. I would state that I am sorry that the incident happened, but not apologize for my actions. The point being for them to understand what happened and why and in doing so, it might dull their anger and the nature of their response to LE.
September 20th, 2010 06:01 PM
[QUOTE=Guantes;1764933]I noticed at least a couple posts of people saying that they would apologize to the person drawn on. Personally, if I were to talk to the person and I'm not saying that I would, I would not apologize.
I have to agree with Guantes on this. As per OP, you may have drawn premature, but Iam not to sure of that. His action caused you to go on alert something made your senses go off. When you turn with gun drawn and he has nothing in his hand the last thing you want to do is feel remorse and guilt. Keep distances and barrier if possible while you call 911, keep gun out but not threatening. If he wants to leave let him. While on phone with 911 you felt threatened and pulled your gun, both parties are now here. When cop get there story stays the same "fear for your life and you drew your gun".
At least you did not shoot him!!
Oh lima are your bags still in your hands????
It's gotta be who you are, not a hobby. reinman45
"Is this persons bad behavior worth me having to kill them over?" Guantes
September 20th, 2010 08:56 PM
Okay, I have drawn and am pointing my weapon at a percieved threat... I'm telling him to STOP right there... I inform him that I am calling 911... I will have the phone in my off hand by now. I will inform him that he can choose to stay or leave.
I will call and wait for LE.
I will explain to LE that I felt threatened by this person. I will not make further statements without an attorney. Except to ask if I am free to go. It is not my job to incriminate myself.
If the threat has left, LEO has no reason to assume anything else occured. If threat has not left, and starts saying different... I will allow what ever is going to take place to occur. I have done nothing wrong, I will not incriminate myself. My lawyer will explain it, if I am detained/arrested.
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