Aftermath of Premature Draw - Page 8

Aftermath of Premature Draw

This is a discussion on Aftermath of Premature Draw within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Personally, if I were to talk to the person and I'm not saying that I would, I would not apologize. Cool. Now the person will ...

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Thread: Aftermath of Premature Draw

  1. #106
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Personally, if I were to talk to the person and I'm not saying that I would, I would not apologize.
    Cool. Now the person will really go full-on, all-out to prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law. Have a nice day.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."


  2. #107
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Possibly, I'm less cynical than you.


    Shockwave (quote) Post #45

    "Why did you trim my quote? Here's the part you intentionally removed, for reasons I do not understand:"


    I would ask them, "Do you know what you did?" . Then in a nonantagonist, educational manner explain to them their actions, their resemblence to criminal activity and how that resulted in my actions. I would state that I am sorry that the incident happened, but not apologize for my actions. The point being for them to understand what happened and why and in doing so, it might dull their anger and the nature of their response to LE.

  3. #108
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I agree with Guantes.

    I may not phrase it the same way, but the message would be the same.

    Shockwave, you're sparring with a master at defensive use of a weapon, Guantes, and quite frankly you are so far out of your league that the only advice I can give you, in regards to attempting to find fault with what he post, is to not even try but rather tuck tail and run the other way.

    Biker

  4. #109
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Cool. Now the person will really go full-on, all-out to prosecute you to the fullest extent of the law. Have a nice day.
    Yup.

  5. #110
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Possibly, I'm less cynical than you.


    Shockwave (quote) Post #45

    "Why did you trim my quote? Here's the part you intentionally removed, for reasons I do not understand:"


    I would ask them, "Do you know what you did?" . Then in a nonantagonist, educational manner explain to them their actions, their resemblence to criminal activity and how that resulted in my actions. I would state that I am sorry that the incident happened, but not apologize for my actions. The point being for them to understand what happened and why and in doing so, it might dull their anger and the nature of their response to LE.
    You said it, "might dull their anger". Might. You're assuming they will listen to your reason and explanation of why you just pointed a deadly weapon at them...all the while they are feeling they did absolutely nothing to deserve it.

    It todays world of sue happy people...I would put my money on them seeking some sort of justice or even retribution...legally, financially or otherwise.

    You may feel justified because you were afraid of what you thought "might" have happened.....he's sure you just assaulted him with a deadly weapon or at the least brandished a firearm.

    Take your chances.

  6. #111
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    In my original post, I noted that I might not even talk to them. What I would do would be dependent on my read of the person.

    I don't accept the original premise of the scenario and was just trying to stay within its boundries.

  7. #112
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I would ask them, "Do you know what you did?" . Then in a nonantagonist, educational manner explain to them their actions, their resemblence to criminal activity and how that resulted in my actions. I would state that I am sorry that the incident happened, but not apologize for my actions. The point being for them to understand what happened and why and in doing so, it might dull their anger and the nature of their response to LE.
    The scenario is also about what each person would do. Guantes is LE, this seems entirely appropriate for him.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  8. #113
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    The scenario is also about what each person would do. Guantes is LE, this seems entirely appropriate for him.
    There are many of us here that are LE. I dont see how that matters one bit. I'm sure some joe blow citizen who just had a gun stuck in their face is going to listen to anyone, LE or not, tell them THEY basically deserved it because of the route they were walking or because they shouldnt have been walking so close.

    Read my signature. It's applicable.

  9. #114
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EB31 View Post
    There are many of us here that are LE. I dont see how that matters one bit. I'm sure some joe blow citizen who just had a gun stuck in their face is going to listen to anyone, LE or not, tell them THEY basically deserved it because of the route they were walking or because they shouldnt have been walking so close.

    Read my signature. It's applicable.
    It depends on what you perceive.

    Given that the original premise for the thread is flawed, as some of us would do things differently from the start, something made you draw your weapon. That is what needs to be articulated. There are many clues to an impending attack, and if one mimics them they may very well find themselves facing a drawn gun, even if their intent was not to commit an attack. There's and old saying that is applicable here I think, "If it looks like a duck, and walks like and duck, and quacks like a duck, don't be suprised if it gets shot during duck season."

    Biker

  10. #115
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EB31 View Post
    There are many of us here that are LE. I dont see how that matters one bit. I'm sure some joe blow citizen who just had a gun stuck in their face is going to listen to anyone, LE or not, tell them THEY basically deserved it because of the route they were walking or because they shouldnt have been walking so close.

    Read my signature. It's applicable.
    My perspective was that, once 911 was called, he'd most likely have more credibility in the eyes of other officers and also, used to controlling situations with his authority (his words to the other person). I cannot speak for him and I also cannot relate to your signature line.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  11. #116
    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    I have not read all the replies so excuse me if this has come up but in thinking about this scenario, has anyone considered the fact that the "other person" is an undercover LEO patrolling this area for the exact reason you have gone to "condition orange". If you do not loudly state your "feelings" about the situation regarding this "other person" and turn quickly (if he is behind you) while reaching into your pocket or waistband, you may not like the final result. Even just running away without having said anything can also create a serious problem. Some vocalization, IMO, is a necessity if you really feel that there is a possibility of danger.

  12. #117
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    If you have never been on the wrong end of a lawsuit, anyone who says "I'll just have to deal with it" is kidding themselves.

    I was working a civil trial last week for an assault case.

    A fight in which someone got their nose broken. It was bad...and anyone who dismisses the possible consequences is fooling themselves, or rich enough to write a $100K check without missing the money.

    And even then, you'd just be a rich fool.

    If you don't know your use of force limits and license stone cold, to the point you can simply filter information through them seamlessly without conscious thought, so you can respond to situations which are unfolding in realtime...

    You are NOT ready.

    You can wargame all the situations you'd like to online with "well...what if..." stuff and think about it all you'd like. It doesn't help.

    Unless you start training it in a realistic, combative, decision making oriented training which forces you not only to run a gun, but interact with people, decided if they are threats and how much force to use...

    You.
    Are.
    Kidding.
    Yourself.

    I will quote SouthNarc, from the training company Shivworks here, "Do the work."

    Do the work, because if you do not, someone will work you over and you will wish you had when the opportunity was before you.

    You can complain it's too expensive to train and you don't have the time...

    OK.

    My fees for that case came to over $3,000...and I was hired 6 days before the trial because of various issues which I will not go into regarding previous counsel. Had I worked the case longer, the bill would have been over $10,000.

    The verdict was in the mid-5 figures.

    The client lost 2 weeks of work just due to prep and the trial itself.

    If you thing training is expensive...

    Guess what?

    It's not even a 1/2 day of hiring an attorney for the CIVIL side of an incorrect use of force incident.

    Their were no criminal consequences to this case...but in similar factual situations, my fee would have been over $5,000 to START the matter.

    The cost of training is a bargain compared to not training.

    Do what you want, but I'd rather see people like SouthNarc (shivworks.com), James Yeager (tacticalresponse.com) or Massad Ayoob (if you don't know how to get hold of him, I have nothing to say...really...) get your money than the local defense bar.

    But hey...Training is expensive.

    And local attorneys need to make student loan payments, or want to put a deposit down on the 2011 BMW. I'm sure you will be helping them out some time in the near term...

  13. #118
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I noticed at least a couple posts of people saying that they would apologize to the person drawn on. Personally, if I were to talk to the person and I'm not saying that I would, I would not apologize.

    I would ask them, "Do you know what you did?" . Then in a nonantagonist, educational manner explain to them their actions, their resemblence to criminal activity and how that resulted in my actions. I would state that I am sorry that the incident happened, but not apologize for my actions. The point being for them to understand what happened and why and in doing so, it might dull their anger and the nature of their response to LE.
    Well I can see where by not apologizing you are also not admitting that you did anything wrong. This could play into your favor. If the other person does stick around to talk to officers that respond, he will not be able to say "He even toldme he was wrong to point the gun at me" because your defense to the police has to be "I was justified in my concern for my safety and took the appropriate action given the information I had. (reasonable man)

  14. #119
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    So, Mitchell,

    Sounds like I can make a reasonable living by stalking people around a parking lot and getting "drawn on." Even if you represent the CHP holder.

    The OP stated that I have drawn my weapon... I am not allowed to say that wouldn't happen, because I have read and studied, and "done the work" to the best of my ability. So, I must assume that after all "the work" I've done, the situation seemed bad enough that I drew my weapon in accordance with the "work" I have done.

    I do NOT have an attorney on retainer... in the event such an event occurs. I do know one I would trust.

    But, having had a permit in my state on and off over a 30 year period, I am aware that in Iowa, I can be morally right, legally right, and civilly liable. Even if I were a LEO.

    In my time of carrying, I have had to "show" my weapon one time... I did not brandish (legal definition) it, I simply let potential agressors know I was not an easy mark. That act (of showing my weapon) put an end to ongoing threatening activities from associates of the persons to whom I displayed my weapon.

    The OP says that I have drawn my weapon, that I am pointing it at him, after he has made a "move." The "move" was unspecifed in the OP... so it was a "move" that I determined, after doing my "work," warranted more than just display of my weapon, but the actual engagement of it. I have done so, I will pay the consequences. I will have been morally right, legally right... it remains to be seen if I will be civilly liable.

    But, since I drew my weapon, after "the work" I have done, I'm reasonably certain I can convince a jury of my peers that I was right to do so.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  15. #120
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    Determining when a weapon should be pointed at someone is always important discussion. However, in the OP, the scenario states we've already drawn our weapon. To me this thread is more intended to be about managing recovery or de-escalation. IOW a threat may still exist, though maybe it was a mistake to draw.......so now, what's my next move?
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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