Aftermath of Premature Draw - Page 9

Aftermath of Premature Draw

This is a discussion on Aftermath of Premature Draw within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ppkheat Determining when a weapon should be pointed at someone is always important discussion. However, in the OP, the scenario states we've ...

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Thread: Aftermath of Premature Draw

  1. #121
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ppkheat View Post
    Determining when a weapon should be pointed at someone is always important discussion. However, in the OP, the scenario states we've already drawn our weapon. To me this thread is more intended to be about managing recovery or de-escalation. IOW a threat may still exist, though maybe it was a mistake to draw.......so now, what's my next move?

    I think that's a good way to look at it.

    Any response I have to the other person would be based on his reaction, however since the OP implies I was incorrect in my assumption that he was dangerous (altho I still wouldnt drop my guard), then most likely I would be apologizing. If there was no malicious intent, I believe I'd be facing a very scared person. Who could then quickly turn into a very angry person based on adreneline alone.

    In my non-legal opinion, admitting I was wrong (about the person's motives) is not admission of committing a gun law crime. I would only have drawn *if* I had a true feeling that my life was in danger. I wont be denying that fact to the person, the cops, or a court. If I genuinely felt that, then I was within the law to draw. If my interpretation of his presence and movement was wrong, that is what the apology is for.

    At this point, there is no way I can erase my actions....I think that sincerely apologizing would help to diffuse the situation. As I stated in my first post, at this point I would be subject to the reactions of the other person, any bystanders, and the responding cops.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)


  2. #122
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    "I'm sorry, but it looked like you were attacking me" does not admit any fault on your part, while "I'm sorry, I shouldn't have drawn my weapon" does. I think I would hold ANY conversation with the fellow until the LEOs arrived, since most police in my area have dashcams and microphones on their person. Unless I had my own recording device like some do on this forum, but I do not.

  3. #123
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    So, Mitchell,

    Sounds like I can make a reasonable living by stalking people around a parking lot and getting "drawn on." Even if you represent the CHP holder.
    If the CHP holder waits till 6 days before trial to hire me...after the case is 2 years old...

    I'm good. I am, however, not Jesus Christ.

    If I was representing the defendant from day 1 the case would not have gone to trial.

    The police report identified a hispanic individual...the defendant was most definately not. Their were some other evidence issues that could have been explored, like the plaintiff admitted she did not see the person who struck her, nor could witnesses or other video be produced to show that the defendant I represented did the actions she was accused of.

    As a matter of law, I wasn't able to explore that.

    Forbidden.

    Liability was found by default. That happens when you fail to answer a civil complaint in a timely manner and fail to open judgement in an acceptable amount of time...

    When you hire a lawyer DURING jury selection 2 years after the start of the case...you do kinda get what you asked for.

    Judges do not open default judgements when the jury is being selected.

    Considering the case was ongoing for 2 years with a default against the client when I got it during jury selection, and I was strictly forbidden by the judge to directly address issue of liability with any questions or objections...

    And with all that I was still able to deflected over 1/2 the liability and the damages onto another defendant...

    Peanut butter-jelly
    Peanut butter-jelly
    Peanut butter-jelly-and a baseball bat.

    One wonders what I'd be able to do if I was able to...I duno...

    Prepare for the case more than 12 hours before opening statements?
    Ask a question during a trial?
    Object to anything?
    Introduce evidence?

    I'm sure what I'd be able to do...

    But I'm guessing it falls under the heading of "Motion to Dismiss" and "Motion for Summary Judgement".

  4. #124
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    If you have never been on the wrong end of a lawsuit, anyone who says "I'll just have to deal with it" is kidding themselves.

    I was working a civil trial last week for an assault case.

    A fight in which someone got their nose broken. It was bad...and anyone who dismisses the possible consequences is fooling themselves, or rich enough to write a $100K check without missing the money.

    And even then, you'd just be a rich fool.

    If you don't know your use of force limits and license stone cold, to the point you can simply filter information through them seamlessly without conscious thought, so you can respond to situations which are unfolding in realtime...

    You are NOT ready.

    You can wargame all the situations you'd like to online with "well...what if..." stuff and think about it all you'd like. It doesn't help.

    Unless you start training it in a realistic, combative, decision making oriented training which forces you not only to run a gun, but interact with people, decided if they are threats and how much force to use...

    You.
    Are.
    Kidding.
    Yourself.

    I will quote SouthNarc, from the training company Shivworks here, "Do the work."

    Do the work, because if you do not, someone will work you over and you will wish you had when the opportunity was before you.

    You can complain it's too expensive to train and you don't have the time...

    OK.

    My fees for that case came to over $3,000...and I was hired 6 days before the trial because of various issues which I will not go into regarding previous counsel. Had I worked the case longer, the bill would have been over $10,000.

    The verdict was in the mid-5 figures.

    The client lost 2 weeks of work just due to prep and the trial itself.

    If you thing training is expensive...

    Guess what?

    It's not even a 1/2 day of hiring an attorney for the CIVIL side of an incorrect use of force incident.

    Their were no criminal consequences to this case...but in similar factual situations, my fee would have been over $5,000 to START the matter.

    The cost of training is a bargain compared to not training.

    Do what you want, but I'd rather see people like SouthNarc (shivworks.com), James Yeager (tacticalresponse.com) or Massad Ayoob (if you don't know how to get hold of him, I have nothing to say...really...) get your money than the local defense bar.

    But hey...Training is expensive.

    And local attorneys need to make student loan payments, or want to put a deposit down on the 2011 BMW. I'm sure you will be helping them out some time in the near term...
    Thank you! I can appreciate someone using real world logic, instead of all these comic book "what if.." scenerios.

  5. #125
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    If the CHP holder waits till 6 days before trial to hire me...after the case is 2 years old...

    I'm good. I am, however, not Jesus Christ.

    If I was representing the defendant from day 1 the case would not have gone to trial.

    The police report identified a hispanic individual...the defendant was most definately not. Their were some other evidence issues that could have been explored, like the plaintiff admitted she did not see the person who struck her, nor could witnesses or other video be produced to show that the defendant I represented did the actions she was accused of.

    As a matter of law, I wasn't able to explore that.

    Forbidden.

    Liability was found by default. That happens when you fail to answer a civil complaint in a timely manner and fail to open judgement in an acceptable amount of time...

    When you hire a lawyer DURING jury selection 2 years after the start of the case...you do kinda get what you asked for.

    Judges do not open default judgements when the jury is being selected.

    Considering the case was ongoing for 2 years with a default against the client when I got it during jury selection, and I was strictly forbidden by the judge to directly address issue of liability with any questions or objections...

    And with all that I was still able to deflected over 1/2 the liability and the damages onto another defendant...

    Peanut butter-jelly
    Peanut butter-jelly
    Peanut butter-jelly-and a baseball bat.

    One wonders what I'd be able to do if I was able to...I duno...

    Prepare for the case more than 12 hours before opening statements?
    Ask a question during a trial?
    Object to anything?
    Introduce evidence?

    I'm sure what I'd be able to do...

    But I'm guessing it falls under the heading of "Motion to Dismiss" and "Motion for Summary Judgement".

    Now, in drawing a weapon, we don't have the time to decide on a response that we have here. There was a percieved threat... in this case... to your ability to defend a CHP holder. You faced the "percieved threat" with your "defensive weapon," a "rebuttal," and then you went on to "explain" why you did it.

    The OP is stating that this could happen with any of us, with our sidearm.. and asks what we would do about it... if it did happen.

    My premise is this... It could happen. If it did, I would like to think I have drawn my weapon with good cause. That I have done "the work" while trying to avoid the outcome... but that the outcome, me with a drawn weapon, aimed at someone I felt the need to defend against, came about because I had "done the work" while the build up was occuring and this was my best/safest recourse.

    If I was mistaken, I will pay the consequences, knowing I did my very best in the situation as I percieved it. And, while costly, I believe I could convince a jury that I was a "reasonable man," if it went that far.

    The fact remains, for me, that I have drawn my weapon for good cause, and that if it went that far... I had carefully considered my options and liabilities in the time available to me... that may be minutes or hours, as it is in THIS parking lot... or it may be the fractions of minutes in the real scenario presented...
    Last edited by limatunes; September 22nd, 2010 at 08:01 PM. Reason: Clean up
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  6. #126
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Very good, and interesting scenario.

    I will need to articulate why I drew a weapon. He made a "move" as you stated, that I perceived to be the start of an attack. Why else would he by lunging at me from behind as I glanced over my shoulder at him?

    In your scenario, as in real life, if I perceived something like this I may be inclined to face the threat and look at him asking, "Can I help you?" in a command voice. Trust me, once the gun comes out I get very vocal. "STOP! STAY BACK! as one arm goes up to ward off the attack. If he flees, he's good to go, as I won't shoot him in the back. If he stays there I will be commanding him to the ground at gunpoint while scanning for his cohorts and seeking some semblance of cover.

    I will instruct other passers by to call 911 and continue to hold the subject at gunpoint. I will tell at least three people to call 911, attempted assault and suspect being held at gunpoint. I would phrase it like so, "Off Duty LEO needs assistance holding suspect at gunpoint." There's more to this than what I posted here, but then to get everything I owuld say, or do, one has to attend some training, and I'm not giving it away for free.

    If he flees I will use my phone to call 911, but I will stay on scene until it's been investigated by the responding LEO's, all the while scanning the area. He very well could be some innocent guy trying to go home too, but from your description I doubt it. Why the "move" and why the focus on you that you happened to notice?

    I've had similar scenarios in parking lots, where no gun was presented by myself. Facing the threat and using my presence with a command voice tends to negate having to draw the gun. That doesn't mean that I didn't already have a gun in my hand however, as I am a fan of Pocket Carry for scenarios like this.

    Biker
    Thanks Biker;
    You saved me a lot of typing.

    I yell "BACK-OFF!"
    Then ("IF" they don't run), I ask what they want?

    If it turns out they are the owner of the car parked next to mine and are just trying to go home, I apologize (Profusely!) as I explain I was very scared of the way they were acting. I also ask them if they would like "ME" to call the police. Hopefully, they would accept my apology and that would be that.

    However having been a student at the school of hard knocks, I most likely would call the police myself after the man had left. I would explain that I was in fear of an attack; and I did what I thought was right. I would tell them that the other individual had left. But, I wanted to call in a report anyway so the police would know I'm not a BG out there terrorizing the public.

    ETA;
    After re-reading some of the other posts, I tend to agree with Guantes and 9mmare.

    What I might do or say would definitely depend on the reaction of the other guy. Dialing 911 "FIRST" is a great idea. The if the man still wants to leave fine. (HOWEVER! I would NOT try to hold him until the police got there. Brandishing is a much lesser crime than kidnapping or unlawful detainment.)

    Sorry Lima;
    I really don't think this would happen to me. I have a LOT of experience dealing with the "criminal" element; and get approached on the street by crackheads and other lowlifes on a regular basis. I just don't get jumpy or trigger happy. Drawing my gun is truely a LAST resort.

    In the scenario described I most likely would just turn around with one hand out in the "STOP" position; while the other readies itself to draw if necessary.

  7. #127
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    You know, the most important part this scenario is the acknowledgement that we might screw up, and some forethought about how we would deal with that. A lot people who carry develop and attitude of being perfect. . . "I could NEVER do that" "I would have done THIS" without properly acknowledging the fact that we're human and that certain physiological things happen to us under stress. On our BEST days, we usually aren't perfect decision makers.

    The real question here is, you find you MAY have screwed up. Not being certain that you have indeed done so, but that you MAY have. How do you deal with that?

    Most responders have acknowledged the possibility and debated whether we have indeed screwed up, and that's good. I think the real question that we need to face is that if this were to happen IRL, what would we do?

    I already argued the "I don't think I really screwed up in this scenario" point of view. Now, I'll think of the other side, and maybe post a response, but I like the thought exercise.

  8. #128
    VIP Member Array livewire's Avatar
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    Oh. . . and maybe the LEOs and former LEOs in this discussion could throw in their $0.02 on how they would respond to the call if they got dispatched to this. . . maybe with a couple of different sets of information:

    1) Call to 911 from a witness while the event is transpiring: Susie called 911 because she saw a person spin around and pull a gun on someone walking down the sidewalk.

    2) call to 911 from the person the gun was drawn ON: Joe called 911 because he was walking down the sidewalk to go volunteer at the homeless shelter (and save a puppy) and some crazy person spun around and pulled a gun on him. They apologized, accused Joe of being a crazy stalker thief and rapist and drove away.

    3) call to 911 from our CCW holder: Robert (or Roberta) just drew a firearm on someone he or she believe to be stalking her to be a crazy stalker thief and rapist. Robert(a) allowed Joe to leave, but wants to file a report.

  9. #129
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    We are all capable of making an error. Those of us who carry a sidearm have a great many weighty decisions to make in a very short period of time before going to our last resort... If we are already stressed by an anamoly that we percieve as a threat to us, it (the OP's scenario) might happen.

    Thank you Lima, for provoking such an interesting discussion.
    Last edited by limatunes; September 22nd, 2010 at 08:02 PM. Reason: referencing deleted post.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  10. #130
    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SIGP250 View Post
    I beg to differ with you. The Castle doctrine also known as Defense of Habitation Law designates one's place of residence and in some states car or workplace. It only gives a person the legal right to use deadly force to defend that place, his/her "castle."

    In criminal law, the castle doctrine is an exception to the retreat rule. The retreat rule allows a person the use of deadly force while protecting his/her place of abode, its premises and its inhabitants from attack such as from a trespasser who intends to commit a felony or inflict serious bodily injury or harm. This defense justifies such conduct constituting a criminal offense. This is also termed as defense of premises, defense of habitation and dwelling defense. http://definitions.uslegal.com/c/castle-doctrine/

    I think you're both correct, but I think he used the wrong term to begin with. So, I'm at Starbucks playing on my iPad, so I hope I get this right since this is only the second or third time I've used it to type this much without the wireless keyboard. I'm not sure if it's already been mentioned, but I imagine he's referring to "Stand Your Ground" and not the Castle Doctrine. I'm not saying anything about the laws themselves, jut saying that I think that is what he meant.

    As for the OP, I agree with Gauntes, Shockwave, etc. I probably would put my hand on my weapon when I turn, which I've done before, but if I had drawn, I would probably try to talk my way out of it but still call the police. I would reply more but this glass keyboard takes some getting used to! Some here will probably be happy to hear that!!

    Jonathan
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

  11. #131
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 9MMare View Post
    I think that's a good way to look at it.

    Any response I have to the other person would be based on his reaction, however since the OP implies I was incorrect in my assumption that he was dangerous (altho I still wouldnt drop my guard), then most likely I would be apologizing. If there was no malicious intent, I believe I'd be facing a very scared person. Who could then quickly turn into a very angry person based on adreneline alone.

    In my non-legal opinion, admitting I was wrong (about the person's motives) is not admission of committing a gun law crime. I would only have drawn *if* I had a true feeling that my life was in danger. I wont be denying that fact to the person, the cops, or a court. If I genuinely felt that, then I was within the law to draw. If my interpretation of his presence and movement was wrong, that is what the apology is for.

    At this point, there is no way I can erase my actions....I think that sincerely apologizing would help to diffuse the situation. As I stated in my first post, at this point I would be subject to the reactions of the other person, any bystanders, and the responding cops.
    Actually, you may have been correct, and by drawing you netralized the threat. Now the problem is how do you avoid a charge of brandishing, can you talk the other person out of pressing charges? If he's a career criminal and is known to the police he might be very willing to simply drop the whole thing and beat feet out of there.
    If he's not a criminal, can you convey your concerns that caused you to draw without making him madder by accusing him of being an idiot?

  12. #132
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    This is where articulation comes in. Telling someone that what they did was idiotic, without saying their an indiot.

  13. #133
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    Actually, you may have been correct, and by drawing you netralized the threat. Now the problem is how do you avoid a charge of brandishing, can you talk the other person out of pressing charges? If he's a career criminal and is known to the police he might be very willing to simply drop the whole thing and beat feet out of there.
    If he's not a criminal, can you convey your concerns that caused you to draw without making him madder by accusing him of being an idiot?

    If you have drawn your weapon and pointed it at someone else...

    You are, in poker betting terms, all in.

    If you fold, you have either:

    #1 Admitted to a criminal that you are not willing to protect yourself
    or
    #2 Admitted to the innocent person you drew on that you make an error resulting in pointing a loaded gun at them

    No.

    You are all in.

    You either successfully see the matter through to the end of the issue, or you fold.

  14. #134
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Luckily Texas has a provision that allows for the threat of use of force without it actually being considered use of deadly force.

    Sec. 9.04. THREATS AS JUSTIFIABLE FORCE. The threat of force is justified when the use of force is justified by this chapter. For purposes of this section, a threat to cause death or serious bodily injury by the production of a weapon or otherwise, as long as the actor's purpose is limited to creating an apprehension that he will use deadly force if necessary, does not constitute the use of deadly force.
    Telling the other guy to back off and making him understand the consequenses of any further actions towards you.


    A call to 911 with an explanation of what happened and why the person caused you to draw your weapon and let 911 let you know whether they were dispatching an officer or just going to take your info in case the other person calls with a complaint of person with a weapon.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  15. #135
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    20 months late to this thread but will resurrect it anyway as it is an interesting read and because Lima's scenario happened to me on an occasion.

    It's probably been 20 years ago or longer. I arrived at our old family property one hot summer's afternoon to do some mowing, only to find the lake cabin had been broken into and some disconcerting evidence left behind giving evidence of satanic implications. As we've long been used to discovering break-ins to the property I cleaned up the mess and secured the window while pondering the situation found, items, signs, and threats written all over a paper map of the lake kept pinned to the wall. The sheriff's office has been called for these trespasses and intrusions on some occasions since when I was a kid but they always admitted that there was little they could do after the fact. Other than the inanity and creepiness of it all I could see no theft loss so didn't bother to call the law.

    Later I unlimbered the mower from the pickup and began mowing, pondering the bizarre discovery the whole time. The mowing job was tough because I never get around to the chore as often as needed. The portion of the yard that is kept mown was mostly finished up and I was around on the side of the cabin, opposite the pickup, that we call the front. The grass is only kept mown far enough away in that part of the yard to give some hindrance to any potential wildfires. I was finishing up in a tight space near the corner of the cabin. Not facing the corner of the cabin directly but it was well within my peripheral vision. The mower had been loudly ringing in my ears for perhaps 45 minutes, greatly diminishing my ability to hear and detect anyone approaching.

    Now understand that this is a very large property is at the end of a dead-end county road that turns into a private drive with two locked gates, a half a mile apart, that must be opened to admit vehicles. The cabin is on the lake end of the property at the end of a dead end Jeep-type road, in other words a long way from public access. Well, the shoreline is boat-accessible, the nearest being 100 yards or so from the cabin. The locale is primarily heavily wooded with mesquite, post oak, and cedar elm along with undergrowth.

    To return to the incident: I'm thinking I'm the only person on the place with the gates locked behind me. I was surprised and dismayed when, through my side vision, I discerned a man who stepped abruptly around that corner of the cabin, almost leaping rapidly into my now riveted view. He immediately crouched against the front exterior wall of the cabin in an attempt to assume some sort of a standing fetal position. A western hat he was wearing was dislodged and fell to the ground when he backed against the window and wall. I couldn't be sure if it was from the course grass and mesquite twig residue belching from the mower's side that was spraying him or it was because of the Smith & Wesson Model 10 that was immediately presented to his middle from its favorite field holster at a distance of 12 feet, but I suspect it was the later.

    What could have been done differently in this instance?

    - Call the law on the break-in? That always proved futile before and wouldn't likely have had any bearing on the occasion presented here.

    - Being more aware of my surroundings and less mentally distracted by thoughts of the break-in with the satanic overtones? Definitely so. I was a "million miles away" mechanically mowing the yard as I always do without really being focused on the mowing or on observing my surroundings. Despite the lawlessness just observed less than an hour before I was "safe" within my own "familiar" environment, doing a familiar chore, wearing the familiar side arm. A notion of safety I rationally knew wasn't real for the family has long endured the intrusion of trespassers, fishermen, illegal deer and duck hunters, and poachers who wander in on foot from the road or up from the lake and who are generally hurried on their way with a stern word. Some years before this particular incident a cousin was duck hunting and fishing one weekend. Around noon he strolled down to the lake shore nearby to check some fishing lines and returned to the cabin to find that his favorite Winchester Model 12 shotgun, that had been leaning on an interior wall, had been stolen through the door he had left standing wide open. He was only gone 5 minutes or so. We'd all done the same thing in the past before that time. One never can be "too" careful.

    Left the revolver in its holster where it belonged in this instance? Yes, definitely. I was mortified after the fact as the draw had been completely unnecessary.

    The fellow turned out to be a ranch foreman on a place that shares a long fence line on the north side of our property. Clean cut, dressed in working western duds, being some 10 years older than I was at the time, he didn't look the part of a satan worshiper or someone who burgled isolated cabins. Turns out he was only wanting to see if we would give him permission to run a temporary irrigation line across our property to the lake. He'd heard the mowing from a distance, crossed the north fence and walked down the hill to the cabin.

    In the aftermath of this premature draw I apologized. There really was nothing else to be done. I did keep the revolver in my hand and pointed at the ground between us for the first few seconds he started explaining himself before embarrassingly returning it to its holster upon deciding the guy was legit. He kindly took it well very considering he'd just had the double whammy of being sprayed with grass, twigs, and dust and had a .38 pointed at him. I showed him what was found when I had arrived that day and he said he could understand my being jumpy. I was willing to accommodate his request so I gave him a contact number so he could reach me and told him that he would need to first gain permission of the county water board as water rights are taken seriously around these parts and civil money penalties could be levied if a non-permitted irrigation line was discovered. He never called so suppose he didn't work things out.

    Concentrate on the draw if one is going through with it. I don't have a clear view of the scene now and am not certain that I ever fully realized how the draw went down but I managed to draw while simultaneously disengaging the self-propelled lever of the mower to keep it from running up into a jumble of rocks that was all that remained of a flower bed my grandmother had maintained by the cabin's porch when I was a kid. In hindsight I figure I had to be delayed some in tending to the mower. I'm right handed and use the lever right-handed. In the event that mischief had been intended it would have been better to ignore the equipment and devote full concentration to the draw and the situation presented.

    I never mow that spot in the yard there without thinking about that occasion. One is simply more vulnerable to a degree when operating power equipment in remote locales and must be observant but be willing to assume a measure of risk in doing a task in such a situation.

    As Lima stated at the beginning of this thread, one is generally not dealt potential self-defense situations in the manner that he envisions.

    I've had a few other occasions where the weight of a handgun in the hand was a comfort and its use would have been justified but this particular occasion was a bust.

    The premise of this thread is a worthwhile read for some of the conclusions drawn from it.

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