Aftermath of Premature Draw

You are walking to your vehicle in the evening from your preferred supermarket.

During the course of your situational awareness scanning you notice a young man following about eight yards to your rear.

He could be going to his own car, he could be following you. He's making no indications of violence though your senses go off and tell you to be wary.

He looks at you and Condition Yellow Takes a step into Orange.

He's still doing nothing but walking the same direction you are walking though he seems to be just as aware of you as you are of him.

You reach your car and are about to put your things into it when you see him make a move.

Orange blasts into Red and you swing around, gun in hand, to find yourself pointing a gun at a startled and terrified young man with nothing in his hands.

Now... just assume (for the sake of this scenario) that this is what has taken place... no cheating by saying "I wouldn't let that happen to me," or "I would never have done X," or "That wouldn't happen to me because of y." Stuff happens to all of us and we are going to assume that, by whatever circumstance you are now staring down the top of your firearm pointing at a POTENTIALLY good OR bad guy.

What do you do?

Did you make a mistake? Did you preempt an attack?

Do you tell him to get away knowing that he could be nothing more than an innocent guy trying to go home too?

Knowing that since your gun has come out you are going to call the police do you do so at that very moment or attempt to leave the scene and call from distance?

What do you tell the police?

Considering you very well could have just committed assault with a deadly weapon, how do you attempt to keep yourself out of jail?

How do you handle this?

When you say he made a move what do you mean? Did he start moving very quickly towards me or what

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Originally Posted by mrm

When you say he made a move what do you mean? Did he start moving very quickly towards me or what

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Let's say he moved his hand under his shirt and to the rear.. your classic "gun draw" pose.

But again, that really doesn't matter because whatever the "move" was was enough for you to draw your gun at him. Again... we are assuming that whatever circumstances that have transpired have led you to drawing your gun at someone who does not have a weapon in their hand and has not indicated any violence other than following behind you and making a "suspicious" (to your own mind) move.

You are pointing a gun at them.... what do you do?

I think this scenario with all kinds of faults of gun carrier.... "he makes his move" ... to do what ? Why would you have your back to them if you actually have a concern about them ? Why not "STOP" in your tracks, act like you are searching for something in your pocket, like your keys, and see what their actions are.

Too many things being done wrong from point 1 and on in this scenario. Which mistake are we talking about ?

Eagleks, That may be but the truth of the matter is that we are all human and not perfect. As I said in the original post, no matter what circumstances have transpired, no matter what errors were made we are assuming that it is what it is and you are where you are. You can beat yourself up about "could of" "should of" "would have" later but for now you are still standing there with a gun pointed at someone.

Yes, there are different things you COULD have, maybe even SHOULD have done but you didn't and now you are here.. if you don't think it could happen to you then, okay, but let's say it did. What do you do?

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Originally Posted by limatunes

But again, that really doesn't matter because whatever the "move" was was enough for you to draw your gun at him. Again... we are assuming that whatever circumstances that have transpired have led you to drawing your gun at someone who does not have a weapon in their hand and has not indicated any violence other than following behind you and making a "suspicious" (to your own mind) move.

You are pointing a gun at them.... what do you do?

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Lima...., this happens to me once every two weeks or so because of the location of my work. It's a "bad" neighborhood and I'm a minority down there. The first lesson I learned was to NEVER let the BG get the drop on ya. Turn around a yell Please "STOP" ( sounds like police stop). Hell or high water, if I feel sumpin's up, my gun clears leather first. You can't outdraw an already drawn gun. That said, after 15yrs I've never been arrested or even questioned for brandishing. If the person is following you and had no bad intentions, I'd re holster and apologize stating I felt threatened. They don't want to talk to the popo:rolleyes:.

In a more civilized environment.... I assess the situation with more prudence. IF the volume goes up and the situation is becoming more threatening, gun comes out at the low ready. Police are called, explanation given and every one goes home. Location and environment play a big part of how you react and the steps taken but, NEVER, EVER let someone get the drop on ya because you were afraid of the consequences.

I take all of your post seriously. What would I do? Well today I drug a young man off of another young man that he had beaten unconsious and that was sitting "indian style" with his arms just passively wrapped around his aggressors legs while getting beat in the head..Pretty much a daily accurance for me. Be alert. Prevent injury to myself and others, to the best of my ability and hope for a good outcome.
Speak forceably and act like I am a bad...
Two weeks ago I walked up on a gang fight with about fifeteen guys. Got it broke up and am still here to make my stupid commits and the worst injury was a few broken facial bones for one of the bangers involved in the brawl.

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Originally Posted by Stevew

I take all of your post seriously. What would I do? Well today I drug a young man off of another young man that he had beaten unconsious and that was sitting "indian style" with his arms just passively wrapped around his aggressors legs while getting beat in the head..Pretty much a daily accurance for me. Be alert. Prevent injury to myself and others, to the best of my ability and hope for a good outcome.
Speak forceably and act like I am a bad...
Two weeks ago I walked up on a gang fight with about fifeteen guys. Got it broke up and am still here to make my stupid commits and the worst injury was a few broken facial bones for one of the bangers involved in the brawl.

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What does any of that that have to do with the original post? I'm talking about the aftermath of drawing on a seemingly unarmed person... I'm not getting the connection between that and breaking up fights.

Hey.....police use the term "furtive movement"...I think that applies. (hey, at least you didn't (in your scenario) shoot him...unlike in some police-related shootings)....

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Originally Posted by limatunes

What does any of that that have to do with the original post? I'm talking about the aftermath of drawing on a seemingly unarmed person... I'm not getting the connection between that and breaking up fights.

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Goes like this Lima....

You- " he came at me with force and something in his hand, maybe a 2x4?"

Cop- " couldn't find anything, what did it look like, what did he do?"

You- " a deadly weapon, he tried to kill me and I would like to speak with my lawyer, officer". (you go find the 2x4, not my job)

Nothin' more, nothin' less. In further negoitations with the prosecuting attorney , your lawyer will point out the persons previous indescrections. The DA WILL point out what a "1911 gun nut " you are and they'll refer to this site.:blink: Comes down to this.... did you feel threatened for your life and, was your force justifed upon unequall force? Well... if you're 4'11 and weigh 90lbs soakin' wet, , a liberal jury MAY just decide to let ya walk.:22a:

I wouldn't stop until I was on the other side of my car to put the groceries in,hence there would be a steel buffer,if he then makes his move to come around the car to get at me I can prove intent

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Originally Posted by limatunes

What does any of that that have to do with the original post? I'm talking about the aftermath of drawing on a seemingly unarmed person... I'm not getting the connection between that and breaking up fights.

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Well to me if you can prevent injury to yourself or others making mistake becomes secondary. I know I did not make my point well. My intial thought from reading your post was how concerned are you about reacting to different levels of percieved threat and concern with over reacting. I may be wrong. I was attempting to make a point that the out come was more important than the perception of whether or not you made a mistake. We all make mistakes. If we get to caught up worrying about mistakes we will have a hard time getting anything done. If we don't worry about our actions we will do stupid stuff. But I did not want to imply that drawing a gun should ever be taken lightly. Nor should should a precieved treat.

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Originally Posted by limatunes

You are walking to your vehicle in the evening from your preferred supermarket.

During the course of your situational awareness scanning you notice a young man following about eight yards to your rear.

He could be going to his own car, he could be following you. He's making no indications of violence though your senses go off and tell you to be wary.

He looks at you and Condition Yellow Takes a step into Orange.

He's still doing nothing but walking the same direction you are walking though he seems to be just as aware of you as you are of him.

You reach your car and are about to put your things into it when you see him make a move.

Orange blasts into Red and you swing around, gun in hand, to find yourself pointing a gun at a startled and terrified young man with nothing in his hands.

Now... just assume (for the sake of this scenario) that this is what has taken place... no cheating by saying "I wouldn't let that happen to me," or "I would never have done X," or "That wouldn't happen to me because of y." Stuff happens to all of us and we are going to assume that, by whatever circumstance you are now staring down the top of your firearm pointing at a POTENTIALLY good OR bad guy.

What do you do?

Did you make a mistake? Did you preempt an attack?

Do you tell him to get away knowing that he could be nothing more than an innocent guy trying to go home too?

Knowing that since your gun has come out you are going to call the police do you do so at that very moment or attempt to leave the scene and call from distance?

What do you tell the police?

Considering you very well could have just committed assault with a deadly weapon, how do you attempt to keep yourself out of jail?

How do you handle this?

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Very good, and interesting scenario.

I will need to articulate why I drew a weapon. He made a "move" as you stated, that I perceived to be the start of an attack. Why else would he by lunging at me from behind as I glanced over my shoulder at him?

In your scenario, as in real life, if I perceived something like this I may be inclined to face the threat and look at him asking, "Can I help you?" in a command voice. Trust me, once the gun comes out I get very vocal. "STOP! STAY BACK! as one arm goes up to ward off the attack. If he flees, he's good to go, as I won't shoot him in the back. If he stays there I will be commanding him to the ground at gunpoint while scanning for his cohorts and seeking some semblance of cover.

I will instruct other passers by to call 911 and continue to hold the subject at gunpoint. I will tell at least three people to call 911, attempted assault and suspect being held at gunpoint. I would phrase it like so, "Off Duty LEO needs assistance holding suspect at gunpoint." There's more to this than what I posted here, but then to get everything I owuld say, or do, one has to attend some training, and I'm not giving it away for free.

If he flees I will use my phone to call 911, but I will stay on scene until it's been investigated by the responding LEO's, all the while scanning the area. He very well could be some innocent guy trying to go home too, but from your description I doubt it. Why the "move" and why the focus on you that you happened to notice?

I've had similar scenarios in parking lots, where no gun was presented by myself. Facing the threat and using my presence with a command voice tends to negate having to draw the gun. That doesn't mean that I didn't already have a gun in my hand however, as I am a fan of Pocket Carry for scenarios like this.

Biker

Quote:

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Originally Posted by limatunes

Let's say he moved his hand under his shirt and to the rear.. your classic "gun draw" pose.

But again, that really doesn't matter because whatever the "move" was was enough for you to draw your gun at him. Again... we are assuming that whatever circumstances that have transpired have led you to drawing your gun at someone who does not have a weapon in their hand and has not indicated any violence other than following behind you and making a "suspicious" (to your own mind) move.



You are pointing a gun at them.... what do you do?

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I just saw this post after typing my first response.

If the movement is consistant with going for a weapon I will most likely have my gun in my hand and shouting, STOP! They will have until I get my sights on them to decide what to do with the rest of their life, as I will have made that decision for them once I get my sights on them if they don't cease.

They don't have to have a weapon, only your reasonable belief that they do. Movement consistant with going for a weapon should be interpreted as going for a weapon until proven otherwise.

Biker

Nice one Lima.

If I react 'correctly' I will be moving as I draw. In this case, around the front of my vehicle to put the engine block between me and the guy. When I recognize that he's (not likely) a threat, I lower my weapon but keep moving until vehicle is between us.

I apologize and explain that I was in fear for my life. Which would be the truth. After that I have to see where he takes it. Edit: I tell him I'll call the police and explain why I drew my weapon. (original reply: I hoped we'd mutually agree to forget it but realize *I* must be 1st to call it in to protect myself as much as possible.)

Gotta say, I wouldnt have much control of the situation after the initial reaction. Cops will do what they do, guy will say his piece. Bystanders will have their input.