Disparity of force, What if?

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Thread: Disparity of force, What if?

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    Disparity of force, What if?

    As CCW holders we should all be familiar with the term Disparity of force. If you are not or have a vague knowledge of it let me give a very basic example to try to make it clearer.

    Situation: You face a savage attack by a bigger and stronger man whose sheer physical power is a deadly weapon who is otherwise unarmed.

    Lesson: The law allows recourse to the gun in such cases, However, there can be other factors such as size, training, or sheer number of attackers. In other words size does matter!

    Now here is my proposal/scenario and its guidelines. What if the attacker is not bigger, has no training, is by him/herself, and is not armed but is just plain determined to carry out whatever act they have planned?

    The basic guidlines are these. No matter what your sex, size, or level of training the suspect has less than you.
    The location does not matter only in respect that the castle doctrine does not come into play.
    You are armed with whatever you carry everyday, nothing more. If you only carry a gun then you cannot produce a can of OC be honest.
    I am not implying that the suspect is a 40 pound 7 year old only that they would not normally fit the profile of someone that you would consider a threat but this person has the ability to hurt you.
    Lastly answers simply stating I would run away should not be used, the suspect will follow and continue the aggression.

    Keep in mind it was just a few years ago that a very young child, 9-12, commited a murder to get into a gang, he was then killed by another child for the same purpose I believe. There has been a tremendous increase in female gangs who in some cases are more violent than their male counterparts.
    The rise in the use of illegal narcotics that spans across the entire population which causes otherwise normal citizens to do things simply to feed their habits. Anyone can be a suspect.
    Ask yourself could you physically protect yourself without a firearm? Could you prevent the suspect from gaining possession of your firearm?

    I hope I have set it up well enough for some good thoughts and responses. If not please ask and I can clarify.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    Perhaps "disparity of force" is the idea to examine, then. The suggested scenario has too many variables and doesn't really get at disparity of force. As far as the prosecutor and jury would be concerned, there is no disparity of force until you've reached a David-and-Goliath analogy. Somebody a bit lighter than me who has no H2H training can still shove me into traffic.

    The smaller guy can conk me with a brick, stab with knife, gouge at eyes, bite with teeth, all manner of unpleasantness. And I can do those things, too. So "disparity of force" of the sort necessitating the "in fear for my life" bit needs to be more along the lines of say, three big guys, one of whom has a club or tire iron. When you reach the "oh well Jeez, sure..." threshold, you have disparity of force.

    The point is that you can draw, warn and even open fire if that disparity is sufficient to sustain a "fear for my life" defense. So regarding the bantam-weight assailant in the scenario, he or she can bluster and threaten and talk big, and tell you that you're about to be toast and so forth, but you have to wait until the person actually does something physical before you can unload whatever you have available. Any exceptions to that simply have to pass the "reasonable person" test.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Ask yourself could you physically protect yourself without a firearm? Could you prevent the suspect from gaining possession of your firearm?
    My EDC is my gun and my martial arts training. if the attacker is weaker and less skilled than I am then I should have no trouble subduing him without causing lead poisoning
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    mrm
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    In my particular case this has crossed my mind alot. I just recently underwent neck surgery and had a titanium disc put in place of c6-c7, so if I even received a punch to the face or head by someone my size (185 5'8) I think I would be in a world of hurt. I think this constitutes the disparity of force scenario, and I would draw and let the person know that I was ready willing and able to protect my life.
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
    - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

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    Shockwave that is why the title contains What if?

    Yes there are clear guidelines on disparity of force situations but what if the attack is occurring and those guidelines are clouded or have not been met. Yes the reasonable person viewpoint would come into play but what would you do?
    MRM this is exactly what I am talking about. Under normal circumstances the person may not be a threat to you but now with your surgical history the situation has changed so what you now consider as a threat has to be adjusted.
    CT as always direct and to the point with confidence thank you.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
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    And this is why my wife and I do carry OC spray. It's a much lower threshold to explain the use of it. "Well officer, I'm not going to fight with this idiot. And he would not leave me alone. So I had to pepper spray him to get away. Would you rather I shot him?"
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

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    There are not many people who are smaller than me WITHOUT being seven year old boys. In fact, I think there are seven-year-old boys who ARE bigger than me. That being said, because I am so small, if someone smaller/weaker than me were attacking me I think I would have an advantage.

    For one, any defensive H2H tactics I have learned have been learned and practiced for and on bigger and stronger individuals. If I practiced the same techniques on someone smaller and weaker I'm pretty sure I could get the upper hand.

    However, if we are talking gun retention then I have no problem producing a knife and slashing my way through the attack. If someone smaller than me gets my gun they are no longer my equal and I can only assume they mean to do seriously bad things with it and I'm not going to try to play with whether or not I really am stronger or faster or better than they are. Because, let's face it, some of those little people may look tiny but they can be wicked strong.

    Touch the gun, you get a blade across the arm.

    You really haven't described a specific event. Has this person just threatening me? Has he (or her) hit me? Is he (or her) trying to take something that is mine? Is he (or her) angry about something I supposedly did? These things would matter as to how I would respond.

    And, yes, I have OC spray in my purse so if I had my purse on me I could and probably would use it if necessary.

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    It CAN happen... Guy about your size, but a little smaller, a little weaker; goes apenuts all over you.

    The only real difference between you and him is that he has some chemicals in his body... PCP comes to mind (but other drugs can do it)... we've all seen the videos... 6 LEOs to subdue one crazed whacko. Martial arts, stun gun, OC spray, saps, and sticks may not stop one of these... they seem to feel no pain.

    Given such a problem, I'd get free by any means possible, and go to the gun if he continued his advance. The drugs in his system will tell the tale.

    that's a general response to a general scenario...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    dont confuse disparity of force and disparity of size...any reasonable person who fears for his life or physical damage has the right to defend themselves accordingly...if youre gonna spend a lot of time thinking about it when the time comes you might as well sell your gun now and use it to pay for life or health insurance...

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    Lima you are way ahead of the game you have a plan of action that can be adapted to whatever situation is happening at the moment. The threat is there that is the main thing so the specific act they are trying to commit doesnt really matter. The fact that you will/can be hurt by this person if you do not act is the main thing.

    Oakchas you are correct PCP can make anyone literally bulletproof. At what point would you go to the gun, meaning would you attempt to use any restraint holds or fighting techniques if you are trained to?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    they seem to feel no pain.
    We are taught when facing an opponent high on drugs, its not pain compliance you are going for but breaking the body. I don't care how high you are, if your elbow are detached you won't be hitting me
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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    It's not too hard to put someone on the ground. Size and weight can be overcome with technique. The important thing is to retain your cool and be deliberate and decisive, per Cooper's principles of defense.

    Leverage and angle can make up for a lot. If you carry OC on your key ring, you might consider a straight takedown followed by a shot of mace and see if that settles things.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Lima you are way ahead of the game you have a plan of action that can be adapted to whatever situation is happening at the moment. The threat is there that is the main thing so the specific act they are trying to commit doesnt really matter. The fact that you will/can be hurt by this person if you do not act is the main thing.

    Oakchas you are correct PCP can make anyone literally bulletproof. At what point would you go to the gun, meaning would you attempt to use any restraint holds or fighting techniques if you are trained to?
    I don't have a lot (okay.. correction... I don't have hardly ANY) experience with people under the influence of drugs. I have seen ONE high person in my entire life (from a distance, petting a fake deer and panting at it) and other than seeing my husband a little giggly with a good alcohol buzz and a few family members get inflated egos when they've had a few too many beers I haven't even seen anyone SERIOUSLY drunk.

    That being said, I have a BROAD basis upon which to base "normal" behavior.

    Now, I'm genuinely asking this question because I do not know.. but.. wouldn't you be able to tell if someone were out of their mind on drugs? I have heard that some people can act pretty normal while stoned or high or whatever, but wouldn't you at least have a hint by some kind of evidence?

    I can only imagine that if the guy I saw in the store who was talking to, petting and panting at the fake deer, turned around and came after me yelling insanities and trying to attack me, it would be a safe bet to assume that I was up against someone who was abusing some kind of substance that may very well make them less likely to comply to commands or even painful stimuli.

    Does this mean you are safe is using more force because you feel it's necessary? Let's say you hit someone in the face after telling them to back off after they take a swing at you and it didn't even so much as make the blink. It has been evidenced to you that pain means nothing to that person or that they simply are too drugged to feel it.

    Are you justified in upping the level of response if they are continuing the attack?

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Oakchas you are correct PCP can make anyone literally bulletproof. At what point would you go to the gun, meaning would you attempt to use any restraint holds or fighting techniques if you are trained to?
    He is, according to the OP, just a little less qualified/able/strong than I am. I will have sustained some injury because the drugs have made him more aggressive/"stronger" than I. What "holds" "counter moves" "techniques" are irrelevant, as according to the OP, the aggressor is also nearly as able as you... But, apparently, lacks a gun.

    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    We are taught when facing an opponent high on drugs, its not pain compliance you are going for but breaking the body. I don't care how high you are, if your elbow are detached you won't be hitting me
    I won't be hitting you, I might be biting you, kicking you, maybe I have HIV and I am bleeding now... and ambulatory... and bat-guano crazy... I may bite your nose off, or your ear...

    That's why I'm going for the gun... I'm getting AWAY from you... I am stopping (if possible) you before we physically engage again...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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    Lima depending on the type of narcotic or drug they are taking it may give them a euphoric type high or a paranoid/schizo type high. Either way the brain simply does not register pain the way a normal person would.
    The escalation of force would use arm bars, strikes, kicks and so on but they may simply not cause enough pain or physically break the body down enough to make the suspect stop what they are doing. In very basic terms, IMO, even a firearm is a pain compliance device you employ it to cause the suspect to stop his aggression up to and including causing the body so much damage that it can no longer function.
    The main thing is you must be able to articulate what and why you did certain things. He did A I countered with B, that did not work so I tried C, and finally with nothing else working I employed deadly force.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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