"active shooter" response scenario - Page 2

"active shooter" response scenario

This is a discussion on "active shooter" response scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; My specific response will predominately based on where we're sitting, near the center or near a side, near the front or near the rear. The ...

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Thread: "active shooter" response scenario

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    My specific response will predominately based on where we're sitting, near the center or near a side, near the front or near the rear. The doors are virtually always around the outside walls and the rear. As soon as the shooting starts there will be a mad rush from the center to the outside walls, jamming any between table aisles. As soon as the people start moving there will probably be very few to no shot opportunities, at least until the crowd begins to clear in any particular area. In addition, those shot opportunities may vary from five or ten yords to more than fifty yards

    If seated near an outside wall/door, put the wife out the door. If seated near the center, put her under the table. That will give her some protection, not only from getting trampled, but also from fire. The protection from fire will come from both the upright escaping people between her and the shooter and the shooter being unable to see her. In these events the table cloths are usually mid length and the tables are spaced close enough that it is nearly impossible to see under a table not in close proximity.

    WIth the wife taken care, respond to the shooter. If along a side move toward the front for a closer/available shot. If near the center, two possiblities. First, attempt to move forward, below table level for concealment until a shot is available. Second, especially if at a reasonable distance and moving forward is not possible due to the crowd, more people being shot and being of older persuasion without the responsibilities of younger children and a young family. Jump on top of the table. This will give me the best possibility of a clear shot and draw the attention of the shooter away from the crowd to me. Unload a wall of lead on him.


  2. #17
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    SHOCKWAVE,

    Unlike you most people are not "experts in the self defense community" and think that what they see on TV is real and that a garbage can will deflect bullets, will you may think that this is a minute detail, and unnecessary others might be surprised to learn that a table or even a car is not bullet proof.

    It has been my experience that most people do not know how to lay down when being fired upon, and will kneel behind a table or something else that gives mental comfort but offers no real protection instead of seeking real cover or leaving the area.

    But I will defer to your breadth of knowledge in the area of self defense
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

    ― Robert A. Heinlein,

  3. #18
    Member Array MrGray's Avatar
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    So for me, the interesting question is this: my wife and I would both be armed. Should we separate, so that the active shooter has to deal with more widely separated targets, or do we stay together so that one can deal with the active shooter and the other can watch for any buddies the active shooter might have?

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    For everyone who said "I would use a table as cover" 99% of tables are not cover, but concealment.

    Most plastic and wooden banquet tables would be turned into swiss cheese by .32 acps
    True. The average banquet "steak", OTOH, is at least NIJ level II. I've been served a couple that were probably IIIa.

    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    If the bg hid behind the table I would quickly shoot it full of holes while advancing on it (well actually it depends on the capacity of my pistol and how many rounds I had fired) to suppress the BG until I can get a clear shot
    Sounds like a very viable plan. If he's kind enough to put himself in a position where he can't see me and probably can't deliver effective return fire, I'm not at all above taking advantage of his error....
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  5. #20
    Member Array Greg Foster's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    Looks to me like he's gonna kill until killed. Shoot him and be done with it.
    That would be my thinking.

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    This depends on what I'm carrying and how far he is away from me and how many people are around and where the exits are.

    At my husband's Christmas banquet last year we were sat literally infront of the exit. Why waste time when in two steps we can be out of the door to safety and not to holding up 30 other people who might also be able to escape by us not dwaddling at the door.

    You already said I can't change the scenario which is hard because in this kind of situation it would be more likely that my husband would be carrying as well and we have practiced our team tactics to protect each other and evacuate. But seeing as how you have laid down strict rules and I will abide by them.

    JD can take care of himself. I'm not going to give him any directions or advice. If he wants to stay with me he can stay. If he wants to go he'll go. He's got a cool head and knows what he's doing and it's comforting to know I won't have to look after him. I can do whatever I need to.

    If I have one of the .380s and the BG's more than seven yards away.. no way. No shot.. Stay concealed, seek cover and escape. I know my guns and myself well enough to know that that kind of distance in a crowded place isn't going to be good for shooting with those guns. The accuracy just isn't there.

    If I have my .45 and he's up to fifteen yards away I could confidently make the shot. Hide behind a table, use it for cover and to steady my aim... make sure I'm leading the target as much as possible and pray I save some lives.
    I love it! Finally some one who's opinion is well respected around here is indirectly saying that caliber makes a difference. I agree 100%.

  7. #22
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I love it! Finally some one who's opinion is well respected around here is indirectly saying that caliber makes a difference. I agree 100%.
    i believe she was refering to the accuracy of a mouse gun at distance as opposed to the ability of it to stop an attacker...as i wouldnt expect lima to carry anything she didnt think would be effective....

    but way to take advantage of the opportunity to bring it up....

  8. #23
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    If I'm close to an exit, EXIT.

    Assuming the crowd is not forcing me out along with the rest of the folks AND other SAFE shooting situations are relevant, AND I have to fight----

    I hand my PCW to my wife; (shes a better shot). Then I grab my bug to give her a little backup.


    I would hope to move toward one side wall while the wife moves toward the other. If the shooter is on an elevated platform it might not be difficult to get a fast, but "SAFE" shot over the crowd; especially if one of us can get elevated.

    Otherwise; we move to the side walls, keep low and work our way into a better position.

  9. #24
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pgrass101 View Post
    For everyone who said "I would use a table as cover" 99% of tables are not cover, but concealment.

    Most plastic and wooden banquet tables would be turned into swiss cheese by .32 acps

    If the bg hid behind the table I would quickly shoot it full of holes while advancing on it (well actually it depends on the capacity of my pistol and how many rounds I had fired) to suppress the BG until I can get a clear shot
    I agree tables are concealment only, but why not use it? Tip the table over, drop behind it. The bad guy might come your way, might not. Now you can shoot if he enters your line of sight. If he goes past you can shoot him in the back, or let him continue shooting others. The only drawback is if he can't see me, I can't see him either until he comes around the table, and at that point who knows what the range would be. Could be inches could be yards.

  10. #25
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom View Post
    If I'm close to an exit, EXIT.

    Assuming the crowd is not forcing me out along with the rest of the folks AND other SAFE shooting situations are relevant, AND I have to fight----

    I hand my PCW to my wife; (shes a better shot). Then I grab my bug to give her a little backup.


    I would hope to move toward one side wall while the wife moves toward the other. If the shooter is on an elevated platform it might not be difficult to get a fast, but "SAFE" shot over the crowd; especially if one of us can get elevated.

    Otherwise; we move to the side walls, keep low and work our way into a better position.
    i'm curious...is your wife a better shot under stress and with serious time constraints or in the square box at the range with slow sighted fire?...dont get me wrong....my wife has very little experience with agun at all and is an excellent shot at the range...this isnt a sex thing...i'm just wondering if shes trained with you for self defense...i found it interesting that you would hand off your main carry weapon and revert to a bug to back her up as opposed to giving her the bug to protect herself while you put yourself in harms way....

  11. #26
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    I agree tables are concealment only, but why not use it? Tip the table over, drop behind it. The bad guy might come your way, might not. Now you can shoot if he enters your line of sight. If he goes past you can shoot him in the back, or let him continue shooting others. The only drawback is if he can't see me, I can't see him either until he comes around the table, and at that point who knows what the range would be. Could be inches could be yards.
    with an active shooter scanning the room and looking for targets time is of the essence and an immediate response is necessary...tipping tables over seems simple but when they are set with 100 pounds of 8 place dinnerware, silver and centerpieces they dont just roll over like a card table and they draw their own attention...if the shooter homes in on you turnign a table over you have just created a target for him to fire at...it affords as much concealment and probably the better cover of the sturdier chairs if your loved one goes prone under it than trying to hide behind it...

    an active shooter generally wants to see fear and panic while he exterminates the weak people...he is looking for targets he can watch die at his hand...he doesnt expect to be challenged actively and shot back at...he expects to play god...he needs that taken away from him....

  12. #27
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    engage the threat if i can do so without endangering others, no question, no caliber discussion, engage the threat, if nothing else, to draw fire so my family can escape to safety. this may seem foolhardy and bold, but my life is second to that of my family and their wellbeing. and in actuality tables can be used as cover, our instructor showed us how a table could be turned at a slight angle, and cause ricochets, however, that would be more dangerous than anything else to the bystanders
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by 21bubba View Post
    I love it! Finally some one who's opinion is well respected around here is indirectly saying that caliber makes a difference. I agree 100%.
    WHOOOOAAAAA!!! Don't go putting words in my mouth.

    Quote Originally Posted by bladenbullet View Post
    i believe she was refering to the accuracy of a mouse gun at distance as opposed to the ability of it to stop an attacker...as i wouldnt expect lima to carry anything she didnt think would be effective....
    This! Thank you for understanding my intent in that post.

    I was not talking about the ineffectiveness vs effectiveness of the caliber but the inability of the GUNS to effectively use the calibers in which they are chambered. My Wilson Combat has almost two inches of barrel length advantage along with much better sights and accuracy I have tested and I can trust.

    No matter how I try I just can't get the accurate groupings with those smaller pistols. That's all I was talking about... accuracy.. and whether or not I could confidently hit a moving target in the midst of innocent bystanders. That all.

    I'd feel much for confident doing it with my .45 than with my smaller .380s. If I had an accurate .380 I wouldn't hesitate to make the shot with it.

  14. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by gasmitty View Post
    The others have good responses to the scenario, nothing I can add to... but you impress the heck outta me by being the only one I've ever seen here spell "piqued" correctly!!!

    Signed,

    the Spelling and Grammar Nazi
    Well, I too, are a grammer ...maybe not Nazi... but Judge Roy Bean, mebbe.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  15. #30
    VIP Member Array HKinNY's Avatar
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    Who else besides me see Lima and JD doing the Mr and Mrs Smith dance against all the bad guys.

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