"active shooter" response scenario - Page 5

"active shooter" response scenario

This is a discussion on "active shooter" response scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by BikerRN Going with the premise that all conditions to safely discharge my firearm in a crowded public place are met, this is ...

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Thread: "active shooter" response scenario

  1. #61
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BikerRN View Post
    Going with the premise that all conditions to safely discharge my firearm in a crowded public place are met, this is a shoot situation to allow wife to get her butt to safety. I would probably attempt to close distance in this case to ensure that my bullets strike where I intend them to, and also be in hopes that it drives the attacker back into a defensive posture.
    Agreed, 100%.

    Some times it is tactically most sensible for a civilian to _engage_ a threat rather than attempt a retreat.
    This scenario would be one of those items.

    Also this would be on of the narrow circumstances where it would be wise and advisable to make attempt to shoot the face/head.
    Most often the idea of shooting toward the face/head is not advisable due to it's size being small in and sitting atop a neck that turns & bends the head is a tough to hit moving target. This scenario though as Biker notes calls for as much due to very real potential and most likely fact that there is no safe background...360 degrees of innocents.

    BTW variants of this scenario has occurred in real life and have been detailed & discussed here at DC.com;

    * Gunman kills 5 at Mo. council meeting
    www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23059784

    * On 23 July 2003, City Councilman James Davis of Brooklyn was assassinated by an angry and deeply troubled individual in the balcony of the Council Chambers at City Hall.
    http://www.citymayors.com/news/nyc_c..._shooting.html

    * Toddler Critically Injured In Shooting At Wedding Reception
    http://www.theindychannel.com/news/20183671/detail.html

    * Gunman killed four people, including man celebrating first anniversary
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/38702538...me_and_courts/

    * Police, Feds Hunt Georgia Professor After Picnic Shooting Kills Three
    http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=7439416&page=1

    * The Amy Bishop case
    http://www.boston.com/news/specials/02_15_Amy_Bishop/

    * Library shooting: Mom and daughter hide in bathroom
    http://www.wtsp.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=71346
    "She wonders what would happen if a gunman entered the library. The library does not have metal detectors but does have detectors near the front entrance that go off if someone tries to take library materials out without checking them out."

    This is one of many reasons why I always carry everywhere, when legal, even to weddings and reunion events....As well as multiple times to my own towns city council meetings. Completely lawful.
    As well I do not drink alcohol when at such places. There is no wine nor beer served anywhere that I cannot acquire myself and enjoy within the confines of my home. Further I do not at all require wine or beer in any capacity, to live and stay alive never mind to enjoy my day.
    Having a drink or three though _prior_ to some always sudden & random event such as the above scenarios would assuredly affect my ability to think and plan clearly as well as reduce my reaction times and ability to handle fine motor control aiming.
    Not worth the taste to my mind.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing


  2. #62
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Janq,

    There are no new scenarios... there are no new stories being told in books or movies... there are only variations on a theme or two. Those variations are presented here so that we may consider them, and our response to them, to provide more data points for our mental hard drives to access if we should ever be participants in similar events..

    I would agree with the headshot attempt as being the most effective... but I kinda like the "wall of lead" proponents as well... The shooter must go down ASAP, by whatever means possible.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  3. #63
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Understood and very much agreed Oak.

    I presented the above real world scenarios to show that this specific manner of issue is a very real potential happening...Unlike the more often for this sub-area 'attack zombie' imaginary scenarios that more often make no real world logical sense.

    As to shot area, personally I very much would prefer to place shots into a torso that a head...Specifically the upper torso.
    Optimal.

    If the spacing (threat in relation to non-threats/innocents) and timing (time to assess and pick a shot) allows then it's a no brainer to go there first.
    But, if and very likely when spacing and/or timing does not allow optimal...Such as the threat not facing ones self square but rather at side view and/or non-threats being _in front_ of the threat as they scramble to escape and get low, then to that aiming for the torso is a no go leaving only a very small head to hit.

    This latter issue of much less than optimal condition also does and has happened under real world threat condition.
    So I mentioned the head shot option & view for a specific high likely hood reason.

    - Janq

    "For everyone who said "I would use a table as cover" 99% of tables are not cover, but concealment." - PGrass 101

    P.S. - Biker mentioned that he would choose to engage so as to protect his wife.
    Myself if this were me AND I survived the ordeal (!) if asked by police why I acted/reacted as I did, my attorney would respond to them for me saying that I was; In fear of _my_ life. The threat had real capability to harm _me_. As from within the entirety of the space that _I was trapped_ within as with him at well within the killing range of his weapon. He showed intent t kill others and _myself_. He acted out in a manner to attempt to kill _me_, as well as others around me.

    I underline keywords for specific reason as well.
    Acting in such a manner of defense would not be to rescue nor assist another. This in a very real way would be to protect ones own self. The shooter in this scenario could have had his back turned to me/you/anyone at a given moment. That though as based on his real and active actions does not reduce muchless eliminate the fact that he is an active real threat to everyone within proximity of his tools functional killing range, not just those unfortunate enough to momentarily be down range or swept by his gun as pointed/aimed.

    This distinction is important to include in the discussion and know as it applys here and in real world justifiable use of force, by armed non-police citizen victims.
    http://www.defensivecarry.com/vbulle...oid-hard-times
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  4. #64
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I don't see any reason not to combine the defense of ones own life and the lives of others in ones reason for acting, via ones attorney.
    I see direction or angle of entry of projectiles into a threat that is actively engaged in carnage as of little concern as long as they remain within the recipient.

  5. #65
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I don't see any reason not to combine the defense of ones own life and the lives of others in ones reason for acting, via ones attorney.
    I see direction or angle of entry of projectiles into a threat that is actively engaged in carnage as of little concern as long as they remain within the recipient.
    agreed...i would like to add that abdominal shots generally will result in whatever the bad guy is holding being dropped...upper body shots will require a body failure to do the same...so a lower body shot may be as valuable as an upper body shot to cause the weapon to be dropped before the remaining shots complete the zipper and eliminate the threat....

  6. #66
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    Well we may as well consider the ramifications of a bystander running thru your field of fire and being hit by you as you engage the shooter. With a genearl panic and you and the shooter trading fire, some people will just see you and not the first shooter and vice versa. There will be chaos and someone could very well run in front of you while you are shooting.

    I for one know that I become very task oriented and develop tunnel vision when I am engaged in a high stress situation, and deal with the threat curreently to my front. I might not see someone running thru my field of fire and not even realize that I shot them until forensics examines the bullets
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  7. #67
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    One of the specific advantages of an elevated field of fire from you to the shooter.

  8. #68
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    One of the specific advantages of an elevated field of fire from you to the shooter.
    i have to admit it is a bold move and offers an advantageous position to fire from...with the amount of paraphenalia that could be ona table at a banquet if the table isnt a quick move possible stepping up on a chair could offer a similar advantage...

  9. #69
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    A chair could offer a similar though lesser advantage. Like bad comedies, a grasp of the table cloth and two seconds would provide a clear tabletop.

  10. #70
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    I have to consider if stepping on a table is worth the limits that it puts in your mobility. I imagine that it will be determined by a whole host of factors, like table size, room layout, position of you relative to the shooter, number of occupants in the room, etc....

    I will probably not instictively step on a table since moving and shooting is my fist instinct
    A real man loves his wife, and places his family as the most important thing in life. Nothing has brought me more peace and content in life than simply being a good husband and father.

  11. #71
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Agreed, you are putting yourself in a vulnerable position.
    In my original post I mentioned some conditions relative to the table top move.
    I also would rather be moving. The table top is for two specific purposes. To draw attention/fire away from the crowd. To give the quickest, best line of fire to the shooter.
    The potential of a large return often requires a large risk.

  12. #72
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I don't see any reason not to combine the defense of ones own life and the lives of others in ones reason for acting, via ones attorney.
    I see direction or angle of entry of projectiles into a threat that is actively engaged in carnage as of little concern as long as they remain within the recipient.
    I make note of that because again toward real world incidents that we have discussed here (being pro-gun, pro-carry and pro-self defense folk) not always have we all been unanimous in position as virtual jurors toward people acting to protect persons secondary as rather than primary.
    Rather than stating my <fill in the blank mate> was to my perception in danger and I felt need to stop the threat. I'd go right to the core of the matter and state the threat was threatening to me, as primary. Everybody and anybody else in the room including wives are secondary.

    I stated that I would have my attorney speak rather than me to reinforce the position that following a shooting, we should leave the explanations and discussions about what, why and when to our legal expert reps. People shoot their mouth off and wind up getting them self into trouble.
    This too has been an item of discussion here multiple times, including review by we virtual jurors resulting in not unanimous results of view & opinion (decision).

    Direction and angle of potential entry is key to stopping a threat, succinctly.
    This too is an item that has been discussed multiple times before here. Hitting a persons torso alone is not a sure manner to stop a threat. Rounds in the body alone is not surety that the being will be ceased.
    If our priority is to stop the threat (!) as rather than wound/injure. A wounded/injured shooter is an angered shooter, that remains to be an active threat.
    For more on this see Louis Awerbuck, or my prior thread on same toward human physiology [I now post site update cannot find it via the search engine] and the real world case of Jeanne Assam.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

  13. #73
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I agree re having your atty do the talking. My point was the combination of defending self "and" others should have more strength than just defending self or just defending others.

    I agree re stopping the threat. My comment in relation to entry angle and direction was relative to legal issues, not stoppage of the threat.

  14. #74
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    One of the specific advantages of an elevated field of fire from you to the shooter.
    But wouldn't and elevated position also make any misses angle down toward innocents behind the shooter? I tend to think that 10 seconds after the first shot most every one is either bunched at the exit, which of course probably swings IN, or on the floor. Therefore I still feel croached behind my table for concealment gives me an UP angle shot at the shooter which passes over the heads of anyone beyond him. Of course those that run between me and the shooter are still a problem.
    I guess another thing to consider is the greater good. We we assume that he is going to kill maybe a dozen people, and we do happen to hit a bystander in the course of stopping the shooter, as terrible as that would be it's still a minus 11 for the number of victums.

  15. #75
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Yep, in a situation specific like this...I would not give a care about where I shot the person including in the back.
    As he is not fleeing nor attempting to stop being a threat I would shoot the person in back, butt or testicles if that's the only shot I have available.

    As to defending others, Biker had not specifically stated others and himself...Only singularly another (his wife) and to that is what and why I keyed up. If he had said to defend his wife _and_ himself I'd then have not had a second thought to make a remark.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

    "A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing

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