Response time?

This is a discussion on Response time? within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; If my back was turned, I think my first response would be a flinch or a duck. Everything else would come after that....

View Poll Results: How long?

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  • .5 seconds or less

    0 0%
  • .5-1.5 seconds

    4 8.51%
  • 1.5 -2 seconds

    7 14.89%
  • longer

    36 76.60%
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Thread: Response time?

  1. #16
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    If my back was turned, I think my first response would be a flinch or a duck. Everything else would come after that.

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  3. #17
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    If my back was turned, I think my first response would be a flinch or a duck. Everything else would come after that.
    agreed...a flich and duck with a turn to try to locate the source of the noise would be immediate....

  4. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I guess I'm wondering... is there an element of "Shock" that freezes folks for a few seconds...

    "This is not happening!" "Wait, maybe it is!" "He's turning towards us!" "Oh NO!"

    Is it clinical shock? Are they able to move, stampeding over one another? Or are they "stuck" momentarily?

    Even "us" with our "superior SA" compared to the common man, sheep, whathaveyou... Unless we are in orange all the time, might take a bit to realize what exactly, was happening... and respond. Especially if our SA level went down after the shooter's talk with another audience member...

    The banquet scenario suggests that if the people didn't know each other, they were at least sharing a commonality, whether it were a fundraiser for charity, a benefit for a community project, whatever.... The people in the gathering are, at least somewhat, like-minded to yourself. It's not even a political thing, so there's no reason to believe that it was a remotely dangerous situation... You are carrying because you always do... Your SA has little reason to be elevated... These are like minded people in a jovial atmosphere.
    There was a shooting massacre here in 2008 at a city council meeting at city hall. I knew one of the councilmen who was killed. The shooter was known by all of the city councilmen and by the mayor who was also killed. The guy first killed a cop who was at the city hall entrance. Then he came in to the city council room and started shooting, One by one. You can bet that all the spectators and press that witnessed what was happening were in shock and disbelief of what they saw taking place. I am sure a few of those who were killed also tried in vain to reason with the deranged killer before he randomly ended their lives.

    Attached is a rundown of the story and some eye witness accounts.
    http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/c...7a4a78c22.html
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
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  5. #19
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    If my back was turned, I think my first response would be a flinch or a duck. Everything else would come after that.

    Exactly my point. After the initial "Damn" or "Here we go..." thought....everything becomes second nature. Training and experience kick in.

  6. #20
    Ex Member Array Ram Rod's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Based on my "active shooter" scenario elsewhere, How long would it take for a banquet room full of regular folks to realize something bad/dangerous was happening (from the DRAW of the weapon) and go into PANIC mode; running for exits, trampling one another etc.?

    Scenario summary: normal looking shooter walks into banquet, walks to dais, draws and fires weapon at some on dais, reloads, turns and fires at audience members.

    1. .5 seconds or less
    2. .5 - 1.5 seconds
    3. 1.5 -2 seconds
    4. Longer
    Longer on average. That's why I hate surrounding myself in a herd of sheep in public. Something I truly attempt to avoid. Panic is also something I'd like to avoid...or at least keep out of the way of. Those that run in panic elicit the wolf to chase. Those whom take cover and ready themselves will have more opportunities. Being ready, aware, and prepared is one thing...but a surprise attack amongst a large crowd throws out the one-on-one scenario, and some of the tactics get suddenly redefined. Movement is what catches the hunter's eye........exit doors only allow a certain number of people to pass at one time. A mass of bodies appears as a larger target for the lone gunman, you take your shot while the gunman is focused on the flanks and the larger targets. There should be nobody left 'visible' in the "audience" at this time.
    Ready for any circumstance? I doubt it. Can we be better prepared for any circumstance? You bet! But I'll almost guarantee it's going to be a surprise. Formal training for the individual CCer? It's always good. But.....you will never be a one man SWAT team no matter what (in the real world). What you know, thinking on your feet, making good tactical assessments, using your environment to your advantage, and willingness to survive.....all will come into play long before you ever draw your PPD (personal protective device). What we learn with practice, training, and our deeper willingness not to become victims should distance ourselves from the "regular folks" (sheep). Never get caught in a stampede or between the wolf and the prey. That's something you may not get from a formal firearms training academy. It's also something you might have to deal with in the real world environment. The panic and the sounds, and the sheep going down around you, lying in a river of blood and keeping silent. Your mind is going to be your best weapon.........it always is. Use it wisely. Keyword=survival. You may never have to fire a shot in order to survive. Again...that's why I personally try to avoid crowds or a stable full of sheep.

  7. #21
    RKM
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    I'd say somewhere in the neighborhood of 2-3 seconds. It's a like a deer in headlights thing. You're stunned for a moment and have to process something that's so out of the ordinary.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    If you want a good idea of what people do when they are exposed to potential death in a crowd, watch the video from "The Station / Great White Fire." 460 occupants total, 230 injured, 100 dead. See how a non-panicked exit leads to tragedy. This video is tough to watch but you will never get too far from a night club exit again.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZx4i1TwZME
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
    Paramedics With Guns Scare People!

  9. #23
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by paramedic70002 View Post
    If you want a good idea of what people do when they are exposed to potential death in a crowd, watch the video from "The Station / Great White Fire." 460 occupants total, 230 injured, 100 dead. See how a non-panicked exit leads to tragedy. This video is tough to watch but you will never get too far from a night club exit again.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LZx4i1TwZME
    I remember that.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    I remember hearing of the city council shootings, and of course, the station fire...

    I would agree that ex mil or ex LEO would react first... most knowing the sound of gunfire without "ears" on.

    101st Fighting Keyboard Commandos! All the way! OOOOrah!

    I do think it would take a long time for most people to realize what was happening... In the scenario, there was nothing hinky about the shooter... and apparently he was known to some in the crowd, just like the Kirkwood city hall thing.

    In the scenario, we watch the man walk towards the dais, stop and chat... then go shoot. We might react faster than the crowd.

    It would be interesting to see an experiment along these lines... I remember the horrid thing ABC did: If I Only Had A Gun That was sort of close to the scenario presented... but everyone in the room but the defender knew about the shooter.
    It could be worse.
    "The History of our Revolution will be one continued Lye from one end to the other."
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    "A gun is kind of like a parachute. If you need one and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again".

  11. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I remember hearing of the city council shootings, and of course, the station fire...

    I would agree that ex mil or ex LEO would react first... most knowing the sound of gunfire without "ears" on.

    101st Fighting Keyboard Commandos! All the way! OOOOrah!

    I do think it would take a long time for most people to realize what was happening... In the scenario, there was nothing hinky about the shooter... and apparently he was known to some in the crowd, just like the Kirkwood city hall thing.

    In the scenario, we watch the man walk towards the dais, stop and chat... then go shoot. We might react faster than the crowd.

    It would be interesting to see an experiment along these lines... I remember the horrid thing ABC did: If I Only Had A Gun That was sort of close to the scenario presented... but everyone in the room but the defender knew about the shooter.
    I would venture to say that 80% or more people have never even heard what a gunshot actually sounds like. They would not necessarily be able to distinguish it from another unexpected loud noise. The reaction of those who don't actually see what is happing would probably be, what the heck was that? It would not be before they saw others running and ducking for cover before they would follow. Then there is always going to be someone talking on the cell phone who didn't see or hear anything. again they will just follow the crowd.
    If you understand, things are just as they are... If you do not understand, things are just as they are....
    - Zen Saying

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