Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs

This is a discussion on Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by ccw9mm It can really be invaluable. Unknown how the fight went or whether he had let his guard down, but about the ...

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Thread: Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs

  1. #16
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    It can really be invaluable. Unknown how the fight went or whether he had let his guard down, but about the most that can be said is that no single tool is worth anything without stout situational awareness and overall preparedness. One can have a gun, knife, lightning H2H skills or God's own deftness, but unless it can be effectively brought to bear when needed then it's not worth nearly as much as the paper the proof of study is written on.
    similarly a person with a gun who is untrained and faces an assailant with a knife could very well lose the battle...its not the weapon...its the operator that determines the outcome...

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  3. #17
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Agreed on all points Oak.

    Some time ago there was a thread on this about allowing ex-cons to have their 2A rights restored as related to a news account of one improperly owning arms. It was very controversial here with folk standing on both sides of that fence.

    My first thought in reading this article though was that who thinks to bring a dog to a bar?!
    Or for that matter any indoor setting never mind a place where folk expect to be separated from the animal for extended amounts of time; To attend a concert/band showcase!

    Then there is this...

    The bartender on duty, Dan Hultquist, 38, went to break the two up.

    "Dan [The ex-con] got sliced first. I saw the knife in the guys hand. It was jagged and was a flip knife," Sommerset said [Rondel Sommerset, 30, an eyewitness and friend of Hillman]

    Hultquist was stabbed in the neck, according to poilce. [The bartender on duty, Dan Hultquist, 38, went to break the two up.]

    "Chai and the guy ended up in the street. That’s when I saw the stabber’s elbow going back and forth [in a] stabbing motion eight times," Sommerset said. "Chai stumbled, he got up twice and said, ‘He stabbed me he stabbed me.’"
    This to my read the first time and again upon second review seems to me to be self defense, on the part of Donald Pagan...The ex-convict.


    Also I have to wonder why a black belt never mind a professional MA instructor would engage in a verbal discussion of this sort to start...

    "The wife was trying to separate the dogs.
    Chai and the stabber were arguing whose dog could beat up whose, it was in a sort of joking way, it wasn't serious," Sommerset told The Post.
    What good could come from that conversation under this condition?!
    As their wives are attempting to separate the dogs no less.

    This is an odd tale.

    Yet another reason why I'm glad that in MA it is completely lawful, and I do this all the time, to carry at and within establishments that sell alcohol and liquor. They way things should be.
    I've had dogs large and small...Never ever has the thought occurred to me to bring a dog with me to a bar nor indoor, not on an outdoor green, music event. Amazing that this idea came to not just one but four people (two adults per couple) as at the same time to the same place & event on the same day. Talk about random.

    - Janq

    Edit:
    I ran a google search on Hillmann's name to see if I could find more info on his background.
    In doing so the following came up as a secondary article with more and better information. The dogs were NOT inside the bar but rather tied and left outside the bar. Still makes no sense to me to do such a thing but whatever.

    Owner Killed After Dog Leashes Are Tangled
    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/01/nyregion/01leash.html

    Stabbing at Vanderbilt bar
    http://www.brooklynpaper.com/stories...bk.html?comm=1
    According to police, Hillmann, waiter Daniel Hultquist, 36, and a handful of patrons were inside the bar at 2:18 am, when two dogs, a Shih Tzu named Bugsy and a pinscher named Rocco, began snapping at each other on the sidewalk outside.
    Another incident that supports the common DC.com position that nothing good goes on after Midnight. : |

    This better written and detailed article answers several of my questions above AND totally changes my view toward guilt, to which I now see Pagan as being an aggressor and not a defender of himself.
    Last edited by Janq; October 1st, 2010 at 05:35 PM. Reason: Additonal news sources
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  4. #18
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    well, not matter how well the instructor might have known H2H...one good shank in the right spot...it's over.

  5. #19
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    Well, ya mix alcohol, dogs, knives and late hours, and ya never know what might happen. Darn sad. I don't think I really want to see a Shih Tzu and a min-pin mix it up. That's just darn scary to me.

  6. #20
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    Nothing good happens at bars. Nothing good happens after midnight. Put them both together and it's double trouble. Like pgrass said, age and kids have taken care of that issue for me.

    It's a shame to die over something so stupid. Also a shame that this guy was on the street with a chance to do this again. The antis are worried about guns, heck knives are brutal. I think I'd rather take my chances with guns than knives. Have you ever seen someone that's been on the bad end of a knife? It's the stuff of horror movies for sure.

    Senseless...and preventable if he had followed the stupid rule: don't hang out with stupid people, don't go to stupid places, and don't do stupid things.
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  7. #21
    Senior Member Array Frogbones's Avatar
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    I don't believe nor hold stock in the "nothing good happens after midnight" or "nothing good happen at bars"..I've had plenty a good times after midnight @ bars, clubs, house parties etc.etc.... home and away from home. Just to much pride these guys had...sad.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frogbones View Post
    I don't believe nor hold stock in the "nothing good happens after midnight" or "nothing good happen at bars".. Just to much pride these guys had.
    Perhaps. I've had a couple of friends "turn" after a few drinks, to the point of getting seriously hostile and engaging in in-your-face threats of violence. To this day, in spite of my best efforts to deescalate and help calm things, I still don't quite know how they didn't come out swinging or worse. Sometimes, when alcohol's involved, "pride" has nothing to do with it. All depends on who the drinker is. Unknown what was the case with the killer, in this reported situation.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  9. #23
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    From experience....nothing good can come from hanging in bars or like atmospheres. I miss the fun. But do not miss the trouble. The trouble has always outweighed the fun. Not worth it.

    Just my .02

  10. #24
    gtv
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    One more reason to have a drink at home... cheaper, and safer, than a bar. My first thought when reading this was that it is indeed a tragedy, and a preventable one at that. As a former assistant DA, this is the kind of stuff that used to bother the heck out of me -- some DB gets a slap on the wrist for a heinous crime, and then he is back on the street a few years later to do it all again. And it just goes to show: guns don't kill people, ex-cons with knives kill people.
    "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day... Teach a man to fish and he'll spend all his time in the basement tying flies and neglecting his personal hygiene." -- Jimmy James

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  11. #25
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    Not much good comes out of a bar at 2 A.M. OMOYMV
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  12. #26
    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gtv View Post
    One more reason to have a drink at home... cheaper, and safer, than a bar. My first thought when reading this was that it is indeed a tragedy, and a preventable one at that. As a former assistant DA, this is the kind of stuff that used to bother the heck out of me -- some DB gets a slap on the wrist for a heinous crime, and then he is back on the street a few years later to do it all again. And it just goes to show: guns don't kill people, ex-cons with knives kill people.
    And if the ex con was indeed the victim of the first slash of the knife by the MA instructor he was supposed to do what? Stand there and take it like a man, or ex con.

    Not enough clear details right now to know exactly whether or not the ex con was justified. From what I gather, first thing that was wrong, you don't tie your dog up outside the bar. This isn't 1890 and you don't ride dogs. Second thing, you don't get into arguments over who's dog can whip who's dog. Their pets, or members of the family or whatever. I wish the dogs would have bit their owners.

    If the dogs had not been there none of this would have happened. Nothing against dogs, but there is a time and a place for everything. Tied up outside the bar at 2 am isn't the place for them.
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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  13. #27
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    Aside from being in a bar at 2 a.m.......a karate instructor is no more immune to getting killed than a world champion IDPA shooter is. Never let your skills lull you into complacency. Not sayin' he was complacent, just sayin.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

  14. #28
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by EB31 View Post
    From experience....nothing good can come from hanging in bars or like atmospheres. I miss the fun. But do not miss the trouble. The trouble has always outweighed the fun. Not worth it.
    Quote Originally Posted by gtv View Post
    One more reason to have a drink at home... cheaper, and safer, than a bar.
    Yup.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #29
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Not much good comes out of a bar at 2 A.M. OMOYMV
    Agreed, and I have more than had my share of that experience.

    As well as to "pride", as anyone who has ever been in or seen first person a bully based fight...All it takes is just one participant with too much pride to spark a brawl never mind a 1 vs 1 fight.
    Even if the opposite guy trys to walk it off and tell the other hey man you got it you the man....The prideful _bully_ 9 out of 10 will continue and attempt to escalate to he point of following the 'target'.

    This very much occurs in the streets after midnight and especially so in and among bars, partys and places that support such associated persons (i.e. the pancake house after 2A when the bars & clubs close as well as buses and taxi cabs all night long)

    Hence the thought and common DC.com saying about time & trouble...

    - Janq

    "...first thing that was wrong, you don't tie your dog up outside the bar. This isn't 1890 and you don't ride dogs. Second thing, you don't get into arguments over who's dog can whip who's dog...If the dogs had not been there none of this would have happened...there is a time and a place for everything. Tied up outside the bar at 2 am isn't the place for them." - Farronwolf
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  16. #30
    gtv
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    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    And if the ex con was indeed the victim of the first slash of the knife by the MA instructor he was supposed to do what? Stand there and take it like a man, or ex con.
    True enough. I am not saying that the man did not have the right to defend himself, I am just pointing out the seemingly disproportionate sentencing that comes with some homicide charges. 8 years for killing another man... I had defendants given longer sentences than that on drug charges.

    And I do have to wonder if the "victim" might have contributed to the escalation of the confrontation. I have known several MA "experts" who walked around as though they were invincible, sometimes pushing the envelope as though they wanted to get into a physical altercation, confident (perhaps overly so) of their ability to handle anyone. And while I have seen some amazing martial artists at work, one should never underestimate the effectiveness of a backstreet brawler with some firewater in him.

    And something else I was wondering... this happened in NYC, correct? Who in their right mind would leave their dog tied up outside a bar in that city of all places?
    "Give a man a fish, and he'll eat for a day... Teach a man to fish and he'll spend all his time in the basement tying flies and neglecting his personal hygiene." -- Jimmy James

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