Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs - Page 3

Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs

This is a discussion on Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; And it doesn't bode well for all of those who suggest that MA may save you from going to the gun Is there anybody here ...

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Thread: Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs

  1. #31
    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    And it doesn't bode well for all of those who suggest that MA may save you from going to the gun
    Is there anybody here who says that? I'm unaware of such a position. As a lifelong martial artist, having trained in multiple styles, my plan is to go for the gun whenever doing so is necessary and possible. Full stop.

    What I do notice in venues like this is that the untrained person often expresses the opinion that any conflict requires a firearm for resolution because he or she has no other tools. Rather, the point is that interpersonal violence may occur so suddenly, so fast and without warning that the firearm simply won't be in play.

    Even so, MA skills are no guarantee of a positive outcome. One tries to prepare in the hope that when the challenge comes, one is ready. That is all you can do. No matter what your level of skill is, a surprise attack may best your ability to defend. In this case, the problem involved separating the fighting dogs, not engaging the other owner.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."


  2. #32
    VIP Member Array Brass63's Avatar
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    Janq:
    This to my read the first time and again upon second review seems to me to be self defense, on the part of Donald Pagan...The ex-convict.
    I had to reread the story a couple of times too. My conclusion is that there were 2 'Dans' on the scene. The Dan who was stabbed first was a bartender who tried to break up the fight. (Dan Hultquist)
    The alleged murderer (Daniel Pagan) then moved on to stab the former karate instructor (Hilllmann). Dan the bartender was stabbed in the neck and hospitalized. If you look at the photo in the news article you'll see that the killer (Pagan) had no marks or blood on him.
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  3. #33
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    Man! When I was younger and not so young, I use to frequent the bars for all the wrong reasons. These days I wouldn’t dream of doing that and especially with our ever increasingly permissive society. Seems that just about anything goes, including killing someone over nothing. I firmly believe that adult video games portraying shooting and violence has a lot to do with it. After a while, a person disassociates reality with fantasy and then comes the alcohol and there you go! Also, the failing economy is forcing States to release criminals early or simply water down the parole process. Even if I’m wrong on both counts, I can affirm with confidence that nothing good happens after 2:00 a.m.
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  4. #34
    Senior Member Array royal barnes's Avatar
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    I don't know anything about this particular MA but I do know that a martial arts instructor in my city, who owned an Aikido dojo and taught self defense to our recruits and our SWAT teams, was afraid of his own shadow outside the classroom. He was formidable in a controlled atmosphere and appeared to actually enjoy inflicting pain on his students. Put him on the street and he became meek and would not confront suspects while working as an auxiliary on my team. I am not in any way demeaning martial artists in general but the title, in itself, does not mean he can handle a reallife situation any more than the person who goes to the range and shoots one ragged hole at 10 yards with his preferred handgun.

  5. #35
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by royal barnes View Post
    I don't know anything about this particular MA but I do know that a martial arts instructor in my city, who owned an Aikido dojo and taught self defense to our recruits and our SWAT teams, was afraid of his own shadow outside the classroom. He was formidable in a controlled atmosphere and appeared to actually enjoy inflicting pain on his students. Put him on the street and he became meek and would not confront suspects while working as an auxiliary on my team. I am not in any way demeaning martial artists in general but the title, in itself, does not mean he can handle a reallife situation any more than the person who goes to the range and shoots one ragged hole at 10 yards with his preferred handgun.
    Well said. Again, I believe this falls to something that's been discussed here before.....mindset.

    All the training in the world won't do you any good if you don't have the mindset or the heart.

  6. #36
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Man! When I was younger and not so young, I use to frequent the bars for all the wrong reasons. These days I wouldn’t dream of doing that and especially with our ever increasingly permissive society. Seems that just about anything goes, including killing someone over nothing. I firmly believe that adult video games portraying shooting and violence has a lot to do with it. After a while, a person disassociates reality with fantasy and then comes the alcohol and there you go! Also, the failing economy is forcing States to release criminals early or simply water down the parole process. Even if I’m wrong on both counts, I can affirm with confidence that nothing good happens after 2:00 a.m.
    Oh please, there was violence before video games, violent crime is even declining. Almost exclusively all my favorite video games involve graphic violence and I frequent bars yet have not had the urge to stab anyone.
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  7. #37
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    Enough stupidity here to get someone killed. And it did.
    A couple things I noticed, in the first article it calls Pagan a convicted murderer. But the New York times article says he was convicted of manslaughter. Which is it and what are the particulars? All I saw was he shot two people and one of them died. It says he was arrested on a murder charge in 1991. In some parts of this country that could have been a straight up defensive shooting with a Prosecutor who was a member of the Sarah Brady fan club. Back when castle doctrines were not so prevalent in some places you had to jump out a window (if possible) to escape instead of using deadly force to defend yourself.
    Second thing I noticed was that in two of the articles it said things escalated after the deceased put his hand(s) on Mrs. Pagan.

    ETA: If one wanted to spin this we have a case here with a man's wife assaulted, some H2H started and then the third party comes in creating a disparity of force. Then knife is then introduced by Pagan who used it against the third party and his wife's attacker who at one time taught violence for a living. Upon learning that both of the people he stabbed worked at the bar, the accused retreated to a safe location. Police discovered him before he calmed down enough to call 9-1-1 himself. He took our advice and didn't talk to the police.

    Sounds a lot like some of our scenarios here. If we did a search how many of us have posted in various threads that we would basically do the same thing Pagan did?

    This one could be interesting to see how it plays out at trial.
    Last edited by mcp1810; October 4th, 2010 at 11:53 AM.
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  8. #38
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brass63 View Post
    Janq:


    I had to reread the story a couple of times too. My conclusion is that there were 2 'Dans' on the scene. The Dan who was stabbed first was a bartender who tried to break up the fight. (Dan Hultquist)
    The alleged murderer (Daniel Pagan) then moved on to stab the former karate instructor (Hilllmann). Dan the bartender was stabbed in the neck and hospitalized. If you look at the photo in the news article you'll see that the killer (Pagan) had no marks or blood on him.
    Brass,

    Continue reading down...I same day made a second post with link to a more detailed news account, and by that new critical information reversed my position.
    As to the naming that was simply my error as I typed in stating Donald vs. Dan. Minor.
    With regard to Daniel Pagan having no marks on his body at the time of arrest, that was taken after he's been cleaned up not at the actual moment of arrest...Per my secondary post with additional details indicating that when he was stopped his shirt was "covered in blood".

    - Janq
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  9. #39
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    If a bar allows dogs then I turn and walk right out and go somewhere else.
    I wouldn't walk aout just because the bar allows dogs, but WHY would you take your dog to a bar? This is just going to make the dog uncomfortable, as he has to keep dodging people that don't realize he is there, he isn't going to like the loud music, an dyour would have ot constantly make sure he wasn't getting his leash tangled on tables and chairs. There is no reason to take a dog to a bar unless he is a service dog.

    As far as the stabbing the ex-con obviously was not rehabilatated enough to be back on the streets. Sadly that is the case so often because of prison overcrowding. I do feel sorry that Hillman was killed, it's to bad that this happened.

  10. #40
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    what the ehck difference does it make that the dogs were there at all?...this isnt about brining dogs to a bar and nobody knows what that situation is...maybe the bar owner invites people to....for gods sake!..and some dogs are more social than others and enjoy crowds...

    its about 2 guys who managed to get into a fight over next to nothing...its about a lack of control and foolish pride...get your head wrapped around that and it might be easier to understand...

    and violent media started long before video games...the three stooges used to beat each other with objects that would kill a man...and theres plentymore than that...

    and for those who just dont do the bar scene...theres a lot of fun to be had during the dark hours that a lot of people jus plain dont understand...whether its just the social aspect or listneing to a good band late night bars and clubs can be great places to hang out...funny...when someone gets knifed in broad daylight i dont here anything about how nothing good ever comes from going to the grocery store at 3 pm....

  11. #41
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Is there anybody here who says that? I'm unaware of such a position. As a lifelong martial artist, having trained in multiple styles, my plan is to go for the gun whenever doing so is necessary and possible. Full stop.
    Trust me, it's been said or alluded to...

    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    What I do notice in venues like this is that the untrained person often expresses the opinion that any conflict requires a firearm for resolution because he or she has no other tools. Rather, the point is that interpersonal violence may occur so suddenly, so fast and without warning that the firearm simply won't be in play.
    And, interpersonal violence can occur so suddenly that the MArtist is just as dead as the one expressing the belief that the gun is the only answer (which you say below).

    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    Even so, MA skills are no guarantee of a positive outcome. One tries to prepare in the hope that when the challenge comes, one is ready. That is all you can do. No matter what your level of skill is, a surprise attack may best your ability to defend. In this case, the problem involved separating the fighting dogs, not engaging the other owner.
    Just as deadly skills with a gun are no guarantee... LEO firearm instructors have been disarmed and killed.

    I'm agreeing with you in a round about way... This whole situation revolves around what I assume to be alcoholic logic(=NONE), testosterone, and pride... "You touched my wife!" "I did not!" escalating to shivs and MA...

    The one thing everyone seems to agree with is the SADNESS of the whole affair.

    And, for me, while there is a certain set of martial arts that revolve around the gun and its retention (if nothing else)... And uses for the gun that involve physical martial arts (stances/moves etc.), I have no interest in learning Martial Arts alone(for its own sake)... only in conjuction with the use of and defense of my weapon...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  12. #42
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sig35seven View Post
    If a bar allows dogs then I turn and walk right out and go somewhere else.

    heh, I thought the exact opposite.

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  13. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    Trust me, it's been said or alluded to...
    As a fellow Martial Artist....Against a knife?.......If I can get to my gun I will...
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  14. #44
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    What I do notice in venues like this is that the untrained person often expresses the opinion that any conflict requires a firearm for resolution because he or she has no other tools.
    I have never yet seen anyone say "the gun is the only answer" an all conflicts, in spite of many claiming that people say such things. Examples??
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
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  15. #45
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    What I do notice in venues like this is that the untrained person often expresses the opinion that any conflict requires a firearm for resolution because he or she has no other tools.

    I have never yet seen anyone say "the gun is the only answer" an all conflicts, in spite of many claiming that people say such things. Examples??
    I may have seen such a statement, may even have been it's author... But to clarify what I may have said... this is what I meant:
    The gun is not the ONLY answer... But it is the FINAL answer to all conflicts.

    My defensive toolset is somewhat limited due to age, physical limitaton, and the time I choose to spend pursuing other means of defense.

    That said, I have a myriad of options (call them tools if you will) including (in no particular order) avoidance, de-escalation, misdirection, inflection, speed, wisdom, good sense, and finally the gun.

    If my common sense, wisdom and whatever other options may seem prudent to use in any particular conflict, I find myself in need of defending my life or well being, I will go to the gun. This may occur early in the conflict or late, as dictated by my mind.

    I will not go out of my way to go INTO situations/locations that are dangerous, looking for trouble. OTOH, I will not stay away from locations or situations that I have decided would be worth my while to experience or participate in, because there is some risk involved.

    There are many enjoyable, entertaining, enlightening, and educational activities that can only be pursued with some risk. Personal cost/benefit analysis is required for any individual to participate in any endeavor, including getting out of bed in the morning.

    I choose to live life. I cannot prepare for any eventuality. I can, and do, refuse to be a victim of someone else's lack of concern for my rights.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

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