Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs

This is a discussion on Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Martial arts teacher stabbed by ex-con during argument over dogs By JOHN DOYLE, CHUCK BENNETT and JENNIFER BAIN Last Updated: 5:50 PM, September 30, 2010 ...

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Thread: Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs

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    Martial Arts Teacher Stabbed To Death During Argument Over Dogs

    Martial arts teacher stabbed by ex-con during argument over dogs

    By JOHN DOYLE, CHUCK BENNETT and JENNIFER BAIN
    Last Updated: 5:50 PM, September 30, 2010
    Posted: 2:07 PM, September 30, 2010

    A martial arts instructor turned bartender was stabbed to death last night by an ex-con after the two argued over their dogs outside a Brooklyn bar, police and witnesses said.

    The deadly encounter occurred around 2 a.m. at the Branded Saloon on Vanderbilt Avenue in Prospect Heights when off-duty bartender Chai-Eun Hillman’s dog began fighting with convicted murderer Daniel Pagan’s pooch.

    Hilllmann, 41, a former karate instructor, had come to the bar on his night off to hear a band play and tied his dog Rocco, a miniature pinscher, to the bar.

    Pagan and his female companion also tied their dog to the bar and the animals began playing or fighting, said Rondel Sommerset, 30, an eyewitness and friend of Hillmann.

    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    In a 1996 interview with the New York Times, Hillman, a black belt, said people should study martial arts for self-defense.

    "They won’t be victims," he said. "They can choose whether to continue confrontation or get out of it and flee."


    > I guess things didn't quite work out as planned.


    For The Complete Story. Click The Link.
    http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...SfLzOR0wotz7mM

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Pagan, who served nine years in prison for shooting a man to death in 1991 and wounding another, has been charged with murder, police said. He declined to comment after being charged this afternoon.

    Read more: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/m...#ixzz117pXEOLw
    this is the real tragedy here
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    Agreed Sketch. The mere fact that a murderer was able to walk freely through society is the real tragedy. No 3 strike rule in my book. Not for murder.

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    There are some that would argue that the stabber had done his time, paid his debt to society, and should be allowed, under the Constitution, to keep and bear arms...

    And it doesn't bode well for all of those who suggest that MA may save you from going to the gun... As a MA instructor, he should have de-escalated the situation, or gotten away from it prior to it coming to blows... more so for those of us who carry. (BTW this stabbing sounds like it was typical jailhouse stuff, push with off arm-stick with shiv... repeatedly, as shown in a linked video here recently.)

    My takeaway from this is that I will train harder CQB with my handgun... I will not ignore MA and it's tactics, but you won't find me at a Do Jo learning MA for MA's sake.

    My 2˘

    The ex con was a big bruiser...
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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    Indeed tragic. Concealed carry law has made bars off-limits for me. I miss it every now and then, but not enough to disarm.

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    VIP Member Array Hiram25's Avatar
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    Sad! I tend to stay away from bars, of course, I'm getting older now.
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Whatever your skills, you never know who your dealing with. I on occasion find myself in bars, we have one that makes excellent burgers, but as I don't drink, I stay heeled.

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    Senior Member Array Sig35seven's Avatar
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    If a bar allows dogs then I turn and walk right out and go somewhere else.
    "Confidence is food for the wise man but liquor for the fool"

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    Well I don't go to bars, and I'm always home by 9pm no matter where I go anyway. It's amazing what age and kids will do to you isn't it.

    It looks like the ex-con learned how to shank in prison. I wonder how long he will do for this second murder?
    “You can sway a thousand men by appealing to their prejudices quicker than you can convince one man by logic.”

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    Member Array Dsimon11's Avatar
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    Ted Nugent: I don’t like repeat offenders; I like dead offenders[/QUOTE]

    +1. Couldn't have said it better.

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    Being a martial arts instructor he should have been at his very highest threat/awareness level in this particular scenario.
    His death should have never happened.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by QKShooter View Post
    Being a martial arts instructor he should have been at his very highest threat/awareness level in this particular scenario.
    Yes. And that's really about all that can be said about what he could have or should have been able to do, as any fight between two or more people means there are two or more choices in the matter, two or more people playing a part, and ugly things can happen when only one of those people decides to go sideways.


    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    As a MA instructor, he should have de-escalated the situation, or gotten away from it prior to it coming to blows.
    While only witnesses at that bar might know the truth of how it all actually went down, it goes to show that it's not always possible ... "instructor" status or not, H2H combat skilled or not, armed or not. A lesson for us all.


    Whatever else is true, this guy's now a multiple murderer (assuming he gets convicted of this one as well). IMO, he should be eliminated.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    Member Array justjim's Avatar
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    I agree this is really sad. But it just goes to show you what all that chop suey karate crap is really worth. You don't bring your fists to
    a knife fight and you don't bring a knife to a gunfight. Always be prepared. IMHO Karate may be great for physical fitness but its worthless
    against an armed scumbag who doesn't care if kills someone.

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    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by justjim View Post
    I agree this is really sad. But it just goes to show you what all that chop suey karate crap is really worth.
    It can really be invaluable. Unknown how the fight went or whether he had let his guard down, but about the most that can be said is that no single tool is worth anything without stout situational awareness and overall preparedness. One can have a gun, knife, lightning H2H skills or God's own deftness, but unless it can be effectively brought to bear when needed then it's not worth nearly as much as the paper the proof of study is written on.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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    Member Array fatcat's Avatar
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    Sad story.... this guy got a whole 9 years for his first murder..... so he should be able to kill again in another 12 years......with "good" behavior.....

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