My roommate’s good question

This is a discussion on My roommate’s good question within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; So my roommate asked this question of me last night “ what should I do if I am in times square (or a similar place) ...

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  1. #1
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    My roommate’s good question

    So my roommate asked this question of me last night “ what should I do if I am in times square (or a similar place) and someone stats shooting?” I basically gave the answer of duck, move fast to cover, then make a getaway plan. I also suggested that the subway stations would become dangerous bottlenecks as people try to escape into them. Hence they could be a very bad idea to go into. I am shore there are a lot of things I did not think of so I ask the form. If you are in a major tourism square, in a place you don’t carry firearms, what is your plan if there is shooting?

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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Parkour (I wish).

    Beat feet away from the gunfire.
    Politicians, take note of Colorado 9/10/2013.
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    Your job is to "serve us" not to lord power over us."
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    Member Array Fozzy Bear's Avatar
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    There's nothing more valuable than keeping good Situational Awareness. Somebody who is paying attention but is unarmed, will be far better off than a guy day-dreaming with an UZI.

    The "trick" to answering this question is that PRIOR to the shooting, you should have already thought about how you would evac if things got messy. Once lead is flying, it's pretty much too late to start making a plan. You need to start acting on the plan you've already built.

    .
    not quite an answer to your question AS YOU ASKED IT, but I think it had to be mentioned.


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    Heisenberg may have slept here
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    Member Array Timezoneguy's Avatar
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    Recognize that what you see and hear is real. Sounds stupid but lot's of folks can't believe that what they hear is really gun fire. that people are doing bad things ect. The deer in the headlight response cost's lives. Move away, save yourself and loved ones first. Engage ONLY as a last resort. Find exits before there is an issue. But most of all act quickly.
    In a gun fight, you can not miss fast enough, to catch up.

  6. #5
    Distinguished Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    As often happens, I'll take the contrary position and suggest that this isn't really a good question. Gunfire in places like Times Square is kind of unusual. Take a look at this story. As one would expect...

    a tourist described what she had witnessed. “We heard two pops,” said Misty Hart, 35, of Atlanta. “Then we saw a whole mess of cops.”
    Like Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco, or downtown Chicago, places like this usually have very heavy police coverage and from a perp's perspective, a getaway can be problematic. If you see roving packs or gangs, it's best to avoid wandering into them. More likely, trouble will happen in more secluded places (not always, no, but usually) where there's less risk of witnesses and interference.

    As for Times Square, there is cover everywhere - doorways, vehicles, pillars - all manner of places to duck Trouble won't often follow you into the street. So good situational awareness is essential. Muggings I know about in downtown, congested areas, tend to be ridiculously banal. Typically, person or two in front stops you, brandish a screwdriver, guy in back closes you in, and you're relieved of valuables right there on the spot, with people streaming all around you.

    Street sense should keep you always avoiding places you can be boxed in and trapped. Scan constantly for problems and move in the rhythm of traffic.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

  7. #6
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    As often happens, I'll take the contrary position and suggest that this isn't really a good question. Gunfire in places like Times Square is kind of unusual. Take a look at this story. As one would expect...


    Like Fisherman's Wharf in San Francisco, or downtown Chicago, places like this usually have very heavy police coverage and from a perp's perspective, a getaway can be problematic. If you see roving packs or gangs, it's best to avoid wandering into them. More likely, trouble will happen in more secluded places (not always, no, but usually) where there's less risk of witnesses and interference.

    As for Times Square, there is cover everywhere - doorways, vehicles, pillars - all manner of places to duck Trouble won't often follow you into the street. So good situational awareness is essential. Muggings I know about in downtown, congested areas, tend to be ridiculously banal. Typically, person or two in front stops you, brandish a screwdriver, guy in back closes you in, and you're relieved of valuables right there on the spot, with people streaming all around you.

    Street sense should keep you always avoiding places you can be boxed in and trapped. Scan constantly for problems and move in the rhythm of traffic.
    That is a good point that I also brought up to him. Baring something serious and bad luck he does get to see a good portion of the NYPD. However he was more thinking extreme act of terrorism not someone being stupid. Beside maybe police plaza Time Square is a stupidest place to touch of a round if you want to get away. I think the scenario is a lot more applicable for the smaller squares, like Union, Gorge Washington, Madison and the plazas and similar thought major cities.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Whether in an open location like Times Square or a closed location like a mall, actions will be similar depending on circumstances and geographics/architecture.
    -obtain cover, if close
    -determine either, the threat, its location or the direction of its emination
    -determine the direction of progress of the threat (shots)
    -determine direction of movement of the threat (shooter)
    -if necessary move in a direction away from the threat (shooter) and/or its progress (shots)
    -watch for secondary threats
    -move a sufficient distance so as to not be reengulfed in a threat area

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    I'll side with shockwave on this one, for the specific example of Times Square. Not only is it extremely busy, but there are so many reflective surfaces for sound to bounce off of that it would be difficult to quickly discern where pistol shots were coming from. Rifle shots with a bigger sound signature (or muzzle flash) would probably be easier to sort out. But solid cover is everywhere, and decent cover can be obtained by running into almost any building.
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    Member Array Fozzy Bear's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    As often happens, I'll take the contrary position and suggest that this isn't really a good question. Gunfire in places like Times Square is kind of unusual.
    ...

    Agreed, it's unusual... However the reason I didn't bring this up when I answered earlier is that there has recently been credible intelligence that there are, indeed, planned acts in exactly those locations... Many countries have issued travelers advisories in the last two weeks about large tourist-concentrated areas around the globe.



    Just as one example:
    http://www.allabouttopnews.com/after...-europe/85576/



    Quote Originally Posted by shockwave View Post
    ...
    and from a perp's perspective, a getaway can be problematic.
    ...
    Unless "the perp" thinks of him/her self as a martyr. Then the above quote breaks down. Now, I don't mean to introduce a whole other can-o'worms into this discussion. And I DO agree with you, in general; more people=more cops=more security. But I can certainly understand why people would be asking this particular question in the past/next few weeks.

    Myself, I wouldn't be so quick to suggest that this isn't a good question. - Just that it was formatted in a difficult way.

    Just my opinion, I could be wrong.
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    Distinguished Member Array Chaplain Scott's Avatar
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    I agree with Fozzy Bear--there are some significant differences between a robbery or single shooter and a coordinated terrorist attack (like Mumbai) that is intent upon inflicting maximum destruction and terror. I think Guantes list is vrey appropriate--I would NOT want to take shelter in a building as this could become a kill-zone.
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    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Since I can't run anywhere fast,I'm gonna find the closest cover possible,I will never go to NYC so Times Square ain't happening,and where I do go I will be armed,so I'm getting to cover,being a good witness,and ready to draw and defend myself if necessary
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Ascertaining the direction of the threat will be significant in obtaining cover, especially if the cover is directional, such as a fountain, column, etc.

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    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    i have no gun, what recourse do i have other than to bug out, find cover, and escape and evade
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  15. #14
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I would have one, but gun or no gun, depending on circumstances and number of perps, that may be the best course of action.

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    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    How would you know someone was shooting ? Seriously, Times Square is very noisey and loud. Pops, bangs, cars honking horns, etc. all over. I doubt you could hear most gun shots. So, I doubt you would know someone was shooting unless they were rapid firing a large caliber, or you saw bodies dropping on the ground.

    I would do exactly what you said if I knew it was occurring. I would NOT run down the street , in case there is a secondary shooter and/ or car bomb planned for the rushing crowd, nor go into the subway.
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