October 12th, 2010 10:29 AM
"I did wonder if I would allow myself to be forced indoors and on to my belly at gunpoint."
One major point of my defensive training was to NEVER go anywhere with the BG's. Don't get in the car; don't go down the alley. The logic behind this is if they will shoot you in public, they will murder you in private.
Instead, run. NOW! (Moving targets are harder to hit. duh) Yell to attract attention to yourself. Should you be hit, at least you have a chance on the street for someone calling the cops or an ambulance . Also, there is less of a chance the BG will give chase and/or "finish you off" in a more public place. "Shots fired" usually sends them scurrying back into the darkness.
"A gun is a tool, Marion. No better and no worse than any other tool - an axe, a shovel, or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that." --from "Shane" (Alan Ladd) -1953
October 12th, 2010 10:53 AM
nobody here is talking about, why the gun malfunction is because the grip safety and not having a strong grip. sucks !!!!
and this story is good for those ppl who always have the safety on at all the time , it one more thing you have to worry about in a SD shooting.
I never carry with the safety on
October 12th, 2010 11:05 AM
Originally Posted by jonconsiglio
However well any of us thinks we are prepared to handle this or any other SD situation, until it happens, Monday morning quarterbacking is easy. While I could criticise the guy's actions, I'd rather admire the fact that he was armed and used the firearm to protect himself and others. Was it the perfect response to a perfect scenerio? No, but he did what he felt he needed to do at the time.
Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid...
"For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield
October 12th, 2010 11:15 AM
I don't think it was so much the gun as it was his training with the gun. Also, from his account, it was quite possibly his hand that caused the failure to fire. May have had something to do with the grip safety and may not have.
My personal experience, on both sides of this, is to act immediately, unless there are very extreme circumstances that make it a bad choice. Like that plain clothes officer in Brentwood. He was ordered to theftound by three assailants and on his way down he fired on and hit all three.
As one said from the other forum, he was stuck in the OOD part of the OODA loop. Unless one has extensive training in this sort of thing and works often from the holster, etc., it is very likely they too will find themselves in this situation. My wife sometimes gets on me, mostly jokingly about the money, about my almost daily range trips and the amount of classes I take. After the attempted robbery/home invasion last week, she has expressed on numerous times how grateful she is that I put that much time into it. NOTHING will replace training and 1911 or Glock is not even a question with proper training.
Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe
October 12th, 2010 11:28 AM
Did the type of gun make a difference? Apparently so. Did it make a SIGNIFICANT difference? Probably not. As others have said, there are training/decision issues that far outweigh the platform in question, though the platform - as the scenario actually played out - did have an impact on the resolution.
I would submit this incident as yet another anectdote to refute the "you don't need to carry one in the chamber" argument. This GG couldn't get the safety off without alerting the BG - imagine if he had to rack the slide? And then he was shot in both hands; it's amazing to me that he was able to properly manipulate his pistol under those circumstances.
Also, I have always been of the "more ammo" camp, and, while 15 shots weren't required in this instance, they certainly couldn't have helped. Both players shot, neither of them out of the fight...if the BG had more ammo and decided to stick around, would 7+1 (or so) have been a "comfortable" amount of ammo for the GG? He's already missed several times...those rounds go away very rapidly in real world encounters (at least in my experience).
A man fires a rifle for many years, and he goes to war. And afterward he turns the rifle in at the armory, and he believes he's finished with the rifle. But no matter what else he might do with his hands - love a woman, build a house, change his son's diaper - his hands remember the rifle.
October 12th, 2010 11:35 AM
In disecting incidents, I don't believe that it is the intention of most here to criticize or demean the victim participants. Rather, I think that it is to the extent possible, to examine areas where different actions may have resulted in different outcomes. There are no guarantees that such would be the case, but at the very least alternatives that appear to have merit are often brought forth for consideration. I also believe that the victims of violent encounters would be only too happy if lessons from their encounters could provide a better outcome for those beset with similar future encounters.
October 12th, 2010 11:50 AM
Every scenario is a tough call knowing how quickly things deteriorate especially when the adrenoline starts to rush. I have 3 different models of 1911's that I used to rotate as part of my carry cycle. Every time I took one out, I had to review the safety location and release method. Maybe I'm just slow, or perhaps I don't practice enough. Now I just leave them in the gun safe and rotate between my Glock 26, Kel-Tec P3AT and S&W 342. The only safety I need to worry about is my trigger finger and I pray every time I arm myself that I never need it. I also agree that he should have been more aware when he saw the BG in the hoody.
October 12th, 2010 12:16 PM
Was that his intent though?
Originally Posted by OldVet
Did he unholster his weapon and hide it under his chest to use, or to avoid detection during the frisk?
Maybe he was hoping his alibi would work and the criminal would get the robbery over with and beat feet.
I'm just trying to cover all bases, since all any of us can do is second guess things.
October 12th, 2010 12:26 PM
Thanks Lima... lots to think about here...
Going to the second location.
Choice of weapon.
This requires a strong "look at the film" to do armchair quarterbacking... and come up with a viable response...
As many have said, "I wasn't there..."
Since the GG lived, it's certainly a plus.
Could I have done better? I would only hope (in the same, developed scenario) I could do as good.
My first reactions were these...
Ruh roh... not a joke!
I'm glad my gun is SA/DA.
He's lucky he's alive.
I hadn't even thought about right turn vs. left turn... and other nuances...
It could be worse!
October 12th, 2010 12:56 PM
Of course none of us want to criticize the guy. I'm very grateful he survived and grateful that he was willing to share his story to benefit others.
I agree that these kinds of true scenarios are VITAL for the rest of us because it does give us food for thought and ideas that we may never have thought about at all.
Without being critical of the poor man who managed to save his own life despite of everything I will say that...
I certainly hope I would never let anyone force me to go anywhere at gun point. On the other hand we don't know the situation outside either. Would you start a gunfight on the street if there was a bus load of school kids being dropped off at the corner? Variables being what they are and us carriers trying to be responsible I certainly hope I could judge the situation appropriately and respond in a manner that would have the highest likelihood of saving the most innocent lives. If that means me taking the fight to another location (even if it's just around a corner or ten feet to the right) I'm willing to do that.
Secondly, I'm of the tendency to think that acting sooner is better. The longer you wait the more control the bad guy gets of the situation. I read over the original story more closely and the good guy did state that he didn't have an opportunity to shoot while everyone was being placed on the floor without risking the lives of his friends. This is tough and I can understand. I certainly would not want to risk more innocent lives and would probably wait for a better advantage knowing I was risking never getting that advantage.
Someone mentioned rolling over and shooting. I thought of this as well but I also thought about how vulnerable one would be on the floor, on your back. Unless you got a great shot that was an instant stopper you are starting a gun fight in a position where you have next to no mobility with someone standing over you with a gun. I think it's one of those things were it looks really good on TV and even in Force on Force you might get some hits but it's very clear that people can still keep shooting after being shot themselves so I would want to wait until I was on my feet before I started shooting unless I had no choice.
While reading his story and when he said that he started turning to the right I physically winced. The right turn was a bad idea and I think he realized it as soon as he did it but he was committed to it. A left turn would have brought the muzzle of his gun on target so much faster and maybe would have even kept the bad guy from seeing it.
The rest is just miraculous. The fact that he kept shooting despite being shot. The fact that he could even hold a gun much less operate it is just incredible.
I found it very interesting that NO WHERE in his account does he talk about pain. He talks about seeing his hands. He talks about knowing they were messed up. But he never mentions it hurting at all. I also find it VERY interesting that it wasn't until the fight was over and the bad guy was gone that SOMEONE ELSE pointed out that the good guy had been shot one more time in the upper chest. It goes to show you that counting on someone to run away or fall down just because you shot them is ridiculous. Someone can be shot and not even know it until much later.
I thought a LOT about capacity in this story. The bad guy left only when he ran out of ammo and the good guy was very low with a 1911... assuming he was carrying a full size 1911 vs a officer's frame. I wonder how the outcome would have been in the guns were reversed. What if the good guy was armed only with a revolver and the bad guy had the 1911. Could those last two or three rounds have been saved for a final Coup de Grace once the bad guy realized the good guy was empty? Scary thoughts. I've never really felt under-gunned with my 1911 with having 9 rounds available to me but I have been carrying my Glock 19 of late and those 16 rounds look mighty tasty in a scenario like this.
I really don't think the type of gun made that much of a difference. There's no way to tell that if he had had a different gun he would have had better results. He was shot in the hand. It's very possible his hand just wasn't working like it should and it had nothing to do with the safeties on the gun. Who knows? Perhaps if it had been a gun with a DA trigger that was harder to pull he may not have been able to pull the trigger because of his weakened hands.
October 12th, 2010 02:16 PM
I do not see the turn to the right, in and of itself, as the problem as it is the quickest way to bring a handgun to bear on the perp. The problem therein, lies in the weapon that the victim was carrying. The first problem was the necessity to disengage a safety and the audible noise it made. The second, in conjunction with the first was the necessity of maintaining the handgun in his right hand or a complex two hand manipulation to prepare the gun to fire. Had the victim been carrying a handgun that required no manipulation prior to firing, he could merely have shifted the gun to his left hand, thereby preventing the audible warning to the perp or observation of the gun until it was firing at him. It would also seem that such a move might/would be instinctive, given a weapon of either hand capability
October 12th, 2010 02:58 PM
Agreed, it was an situational awareness problem.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
I feel the same.
Originally Posted by Bark'n
"The pistol, learn it well, carry it always ..." ~ Jeff Cooper
"Terrorists: They hated you yesterday, they hate you today, and they will hate you tomorrow. End the cycle of hatred, don’t give them a tomorrow."
October 12th, 2010 03:11 PM
it could have been he had a bad grip due to his wound and did not engage the grip safety..or maybe he limp wristed because of his bad hand and it had a FTE in which case type of gun did not matter
October 12th, 2010 03:19 PM
I saw the original thread a while back. I may be misremembering, but I thought the good guy mentioned the close proximity of his buddies as one of the things he was concerned about; i.e., starting a gunfight with a lot of non-threats around.
Having taken a class now that covered retention and disarms, if I got to the point right before the shooting started where the BG is behind me with a gun, I think my next step would be to get his muzzle off of me first, and only then shoot him. That, however, raises the question of where the BG's muzzle ends up pointing once I get it off of me. It's possible the layout of the room and relative position of his buddies made the GG turn one way rather than the other.
“What is a moderate interpretation of [the Constitution]? Halfway between what it says and [...] what you want it to say?” —Justice Antonin Scalia
SIG: P220R SS Elite SAO, P220R SAO, P220R Carry, P226R Navy, P226, P239/.40S&W, P2022/.40S&W; GSR 5", P6.
October 12th, 2010 03:48 PM
Several things could have gone differently such as coughing to cover the click or never letting yourself get herded somewhere but I wasn't there so I am not going to second guess his actions.
I do have reservations against external safeties and believe the grip safety was a major source of his problems. Its hard to properly grip the weapon after being sot in the hand and in that case the grip safety could get you killed.
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