When to Shoot and How a Carry Gun Effects Things

This is a discussion on When to Shoot and How a Carry Gun Effects Things within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Someone sent me a link to this story ( http://www.newstribune.com/articles/...atenight09.txt )along with another link to the "victim's" (i.e. the individual who shot in self defense) ...

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Thread: When to Shoot and How a Carry Gun Effects Things

  1. #1
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    When to Shoot and How a Carry Gun Effects Things

    Someone sent me a link to this story ( http://www.newstribune.com/articles/...atenight09.txt )along with another link to the "victim's" (i.e. the individual who shot in self defense) personal account of how things happened.

    To sum things up:

    The man was carrying a 1911 in a Milt Sparks holster and standing outside of an office and apartment building with a group of friends just talking.

    Another man approached wearing a hoodie and a bandana covering his face and holding a revolver in his hand.

    At first our good guy thought it was a joke, but then the bad guy told them all to go inside and something about it being a robbery.

    He told everyone to get on the floor face down and for whatever reason, while the BG was briefly occupied, the GG unholstered and put his 1911 under his chest.

    The BG came over and started to frisk him and upon pulling up the shirt and seeing the holster he demanded to know where the gun was.

    The GG said he left it in the car because they were going to go for drinks and the BG didn't believe him.

    He forced him to stand up. The GG still has the gun in his hand, held to his chest facing away from the BG.

    The BG was standing at around 5:00 of the GG who was right handed.

    The GG started to turn until he had the BG at about 3:00 (turning right) and as he did he thumbed off the safety and the BG either saw or heard the safety being flicked off and shot the good guy in the stomach.

    Luckily the angle was off and his stomach was only grazed but because he had his left hand tucked in to his stomach the bullet did find his left hand and mangle it pretty bad.

    The GG continued to turn to return fire while the BG took another shot. Again, both fortunately and unfortunately the round hit the GG in the strong hand which stopped it from entering his abdomen, but now both his gun hand and his off hand have been shot.

    The BG started to back off of the GG who finally got two shots off despite having mangled hands, both of them missing the BG.

    The GG tried to shoot again but the gun wouldn't fire. Thinking he had a malfunction he ducked under a table, told everyone to stay down, noted the mess that was his hands but racked the slide anyway and stood back up to shoot.

    They exchanged a few more rounds and the GG finally scored a hit before the BG ran out of ammo and was out the door and gone.

    In hindsight he believes that it was the sound of the safety being disengaged that alerted the BG to his gun and that his failure to fire was not an issue with the round but rather that he did not have a solid grip on the 1911 due to his wounds that kept the grip safety from being disengaged.

    He admits he has no idea how he was able to hang on to the gun and rack the slide despite being shot in both hands but he's very glad he was able to do so. He was also very glad that the BG was carrying a revolver as his limited ammo very well could have been the thing that saved his life.

    The reason this was sent to me was because the sender wanted my opinion on whether a story like this would affect my willingness to carry a 1911.

    It is an extraordinary story, for sure.

    I've been considering it all day. And I've decided to entice the good membership here with the questions that have been plaguing me and get your take....

    My first wish is to not judge the man at all. Without having been in his situation I can not say that I would have done anything differently though I did wonder if I would allow myself to be forced indoors and on to my belly at gunpoint. Would you?

    When given the opportunity to draw the gun and place it under his belly did he have an opportunity to thumb off the safety then? I can't say whether I would have shot or not at this point because until then things were progressing in a scripted robbery fashion and no one was being hurt.

    Assuming he could have moved would movement have saved him from being shot instead of just turning around and being saved from possibly life-threatening shots by his hands?

    Was the fact that he was carrying a 1911 that much of a detriment to the situation? Would it have really made a difference if he'd been carrying another firearm?

    Thoughts?

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  3. #2
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    While I personally don't buy this story as being true, I don't feel carrying a 1911 or any other guy would have made a big enough difference. Also, the movements describe seemed to be the best option from a prone position.

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Glad he survived the encounter. Hopefully he will recover from his injuries.

    Although I don't carry a 1911, I did at one time and still have one.
    Those are very difficult questions to answer.
    1. Probably not. I would take the first opportunity or attempt to create one.
    2. Possibly by creating a verbalization or other noise to cover the sound. I would probably have hit the safety in the process of engaging and firing on the perp. Given an opportunity, I would have shot as I do not trust the benevolence criminals.
    3. Movement may have helped or it may not have helped, that is unanswerable. As I mentioned in another thread, I believe that the benefit of movement is enhanced by a distraction.
    4. I don't think that it was that much of a detriment, but it might be depend on the method of deployment as illustrated in the actual situation.
    5. A different gun would probably have made little difference in the outcome, again, the answer would lie in specifics.

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    Absolutely true. He posted pics, etc. on M4carbine.net I believe. The gun was on him and he didn't draw his, end of story. Just like Tuesday night I drew and was committed to firing instantly after contact.

    One cannot judge a situation unless they were there, knew or were the individual and knows exactly, without bias or from just one side how it ALL went down.

    Hesitation can get you shot......so can acting when your training isn't up to par......so can walking to the store.

    As for the 1911. In no time does my safety come off until I'm coming on target and committed to firing. We weren't there, but when your senses are at 200%, that includes hearing. Bad guys have adrenaline dumps as well.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Member Array OldLincoln's Avatar
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    If the BG was distracted so the GG could draw and put the gun to his chest, why couldn't he have shot the BG then? While I don't know for sure what I would have done, my instinct tells me if I draw when the BG with a gun isn't looking at I'm committed and take him down.

    Further, I can't envision being herded with a group (5-6?) into a building to be robbed by a single BG. I really question if this happened and one reason why is I read the same story only it was a poker game on the back porch when the single BG opened the screen door and confronted them. Same shots, same effect.

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    Hi 'limatunes'
    I carry a S&W 640 these days but if the sound of the safety was the culprit, there are other variables that may have contributed to the incident going south. It’s so hard to second-guess how anything could have been done better. Anyway, thanks for sharing as it adds to my memory bank of what not to do in a similar situation.

    So, did the BG get away completely or was he ever tracked down with his unknown injuries?

    Regards,
    Dan
    “Monsters are real and so are ghosts. They live inside of us, and sometimes they win.”
    ~ Stephen King

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    VIP Member Array jonconsiglio's Avatar
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    He was tracked down to an empty office, alley, apartment, etc. He lived. Apparently, he was keeping a close eye on the guy with the gun. This happened at least a year ago. I'll see if I can find a link to the original post after it happened.

    *EDIT - link posted below. Thanks for posting the link. This is one of the stories I often mention when guys talk about statistically not needing a reload and for those guys that don't practice with malfunction drills. This, plus 4 others.
    Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe

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    Member Array metallic's Avatar
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    Here's the thread over on M4Carbine.net. If I remember correctly, the crook was captured hiding in the house of an employee of the prison in which he was incarcerated.
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    Maybe he didn't feel it was safe to fire when on the floor. Maybe the BG had his gun at the back of someone's head while he was frisking them. The GG might have thought he would have a better opportunity to fire and next thing you know, he's being frisked himself, which might have been a good time to catch the BG by surprise and flip over, use one hand to push and control the BG's gun arm and the other hand to fire.
    We were taught to flop onto our back, raise our legs for protection and fire between our feet, but this is if we are face to face with a BG. Facing away this maneuver would be pretty tough, if not impossible, but I don't think I would have been doing anything slowly.
    I'm thinking I would not have let myself be taken into the building. That might have been the best opportunity to draw and fire, when the gunman is trying to pay attention to everybody before they are defenseless.
    Tough scenario. Your actions aren't just responsible for you, they are responsible for all your buddies, too.

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    As I see it, he had a failure to recognize the threat for what it was! When he saw a man wearing a hoodie, with mask over his face and gun in his hand, he tried to deny to himself what he was actually seeing.

    I believe had he acted at the moment he saw that "masked gunman" he likely would have successfully foiled the crime. He would have intervened before the the bad guy expected to engage and thus would have had the element of surprise.

    I believe too many people fail to recognize the danger for what it is by either denying it is what it is, or it just doesn't register. No one want's to be in a gunfight! I think that for many people, they so much don't want to be in a gunfight that they allow things to get to a point where they find themselves on the losing end.

    If you get stuck in condition white or condition yellow and fail to advance to condition orange and red when it's appropriate to do so, you're going to lose.

    I believe the fact that he was carrying a 1911 platform had less to do with his getting shot as his lack of recognizing a deadly force situation when it first presented itself.
    -Bark'n
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    "The gun is the great equalizer... For it is the gun, that allows the meek to repel the monsters; Whom are bigger, stronger and without conscience, prey on those who without one, would surely perish."

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    Member Array guardmt's Avatar
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    Dont have to worry about the safety part for me....the beauty of a Glock Also I hope he realize he now has to live with a messed up hand for not taking action right when he say the guy
    “What we have done for ourselves alone dies with us; what we have done for others and the world remains and is immortal.” Albert Pike

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    VIP Member Array shockwave's Avatar
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    I'm questioning the turn to the right. In drills for this, I've practiced raising the weak arm and turning to the left, firing behind under the raised arm. You're on target much faster this way and the BG doesn't see the firearm until it's right on him.

    The turn to the right loses a lot of time and gives the BG an opportunity to see the weapon before it's on him.

    On a slightly related question, concerning the wound to the GG's strong hand, I wonder if the natural inclination is to fire at the weapon being pointed at you.
    "It may seem difficult at first, but everything is difficult at first."

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    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    I think I read somewhere that people are shoot at the weapon and weapon hand much more frequently than COM
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    Quote Originally Posted by ctsketch View Post
    I think I read somewhere that people are shoot at the weapon and weapon hand much more frequently than COM
    Target fixation.... "HOLY **** THAT'S A GUN!" Somewhat natural tendency to consider that the threat rather than the person wielding it.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

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    Member Array TSKnight's Avatar
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    I'm not going to dissect this guys shoot, I wasn't there.

    I've done training drills drawing against an armed attacker. I have never gotten a shot off before the BG pulled the trigger.
    The best I've done is start with my gun in hand quick step right and a partial left turn to fire under my left arm at BG.(p.s. use a long sleeve cotton shirt, powder burns. ) I usually end up firing at the same time as BG.(my partner knows the routine which makes it more difficult.)

    As a training aid, I have a "Light Shot" made by Jason & Tiffin Inc. that replaces the cylinder on my S&W 36. It projects a red dot to show your point of impact when the trigger is pulled. Works very well for point shooting and "instinctive alignment" training.
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    A well armed lamb contesting the vote.

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