Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk

This is a discussion on Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by Guantes While in most situations, letting the bg move you from one location to another is considered extremely bad, I do not ...

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Thread: Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    While in most situations, letting the bg move you from one location to another is considered extremely bad, I do not see that as the case here and in this case may be of advantage to me. Outside means a much lighter concentration of other people around us, this means less potential background targets. Outside will give me greater freedom for movement and direction. Outside is still in public view, not some hidden place like a cooler with no witnesses. Based on the described congestion inside, I would prefer to be outside as I think that it gives me greater freedom of action with less likelihood of collateral damage.
    I like this answer. As I get older, the day will come when I have to change tactics.
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  3. #17
    Senior Member Array ZX9RCAM's Avatar
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    The only way you would stay alive would be refusing to go quietly, whatever that entails.

    If you left with him, you would be killed!
    If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.

    -Will Rogers

    Im a big fan of the .22LR for bear defense.
    Just shoot the guy next to you in the knee and run like heck.

  4. #18
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Always, never, only, every.......
    Define "left".
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  5. #19
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Simply refuse. If he's going to kill you make sure there are plenty of witnesses. Being that close to you, and having the drop on you, you would not be able to draw your weapon and fire anyway. But by looking into his eyes and saying no, it may cause a melt down in his mind long enough to react before he recovers. While never wanting to hurt an innocent bystander, at a time like that it would become a secondary priority.

  6. #20
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    Dead anyway so I'm waiting for some distraction (trip, go thru swinging door, rounding a corner) so I can go out blazing.

  7. #21
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Going with the given scenerio.....my family would not be with me etc....so I am not thinking about their risk/survival.

    I'm alone (in terms of family) checking out, BG approaches and leans in to whisper threat....

    This would be the one time a knife is brought to a gunfight.

    Based on my training and experiences, I'm not going outside. The bigger area gives the BG all that many more options. I prefer in close, tight cramped quarters to do what I need to do to survive.


    This, in a way, reminds me of many scenerios I've either thought about or trained for. Gunman on a bus? Guman on subway?

    If he's already leaned into me...I go on the offensive. Grab him, manipulate his position to suit me...gun away from me or try to control his gun hand/arm. If shots are fired and bystanders are hit/killed...not my priority or my concern. Up close and personal is why I carry knives. In the midst of being that up close and personal ....if no vital points are open (neck/throat, armpit etc) ....he gets stuck like a pig.....torso, stomach, groin, inner thigh if possible. Anywhere I can slice through flesh in hopes of catching an artery.

    My solution might not suit others. That's fine. But that's how I would look to resolve this scenerio. Going outside just opens the window for a shoot n run or a gunfight. The odds would be favoring the BG as he has his hand on his gun already...

    I'll keep things inside where I can use my size, weight, training and immediate enviroment to my advantage for close quarters combat.

  8. #22
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Long winded answer lost to the ether...

    Resist: get shot, probably.

    Comply: probably get shot elsewhere.

    I like feigning compliance to get outside, maybe.

    Else (both you and he right handed): Fall back into him, feigning a dead weight faint, gun hand under your arm. Fall spinning to right, bite gun hand, knife gun hand, or wrench gun away; maybe.

    Once course of action determined, you must be fast.

    This one, to me, is up for grabs... the actual complete facts of the occurence determining my actions. I would rather be dead than risk a spinal injury/shot... and survive a para or quad. That's me. If I can shoot him, he's dead... I might die trying... but I'll try something.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  9. #23
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Really depends. If I thought he was bluffing I would want to flip the bird, make the place a verbally un-family friendly venue and walk away. If he actually seemed like he would do damage there, well it would be a different story. I donít carry a gun or a knife so something makeshift would probably become a shank or impact weapon very quickly (I hope those soup cans are thick) or I will try beating him with the end of my pocket flashlight. Anywise my defensive plan would be summed up as beat him like a red headed step child.
    No offense to red headed step children.

  10. #24
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    An interesting thread with a variety of solutions.

    I was struck by something that, while it would seem obvious, is often less than so amid the variety of solutions often given here for situations and scenarios. Many individuals respond the same way to any particular problem. Within the specific circumstances, they attempt to take avantage of their attributes (strength, training, weapons,etc) while attempting to minimize their defecits (age, infirmity, lack of weapons, etc), thus improving the probability of their solution providing a satisfactory conclusion to the incident. These defined responses illustrate personal efforts to to enable them to respond to situations with logic and effectiveness in contrast to the random spontaneous actions of those who do not make such efforts. So, while solutions may be very different in their specific actions, they are very similar in their strategy.

    Another thing that appears prevelant is the concern for the safety of others. This concern seems to be in inverse proportion to the level of threat to ones self. The greater the threat to ones self, the less the concern for others. This would seem natural.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  11. #25
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    Yep, ya gotta work with the tools at hand and the ones you know how to use.. Some will go all Kwai Chang Caine on him, because that's what they know and think they can do.

    Some will go outside with him, and take it from there.

    Some will engage on the spot with a gun.

    Speaking of Caine.... According to the grown grasshopper his own self: "If you trust yourself, any choice you make will be correct. If you do not trust yourself, anything you do will be wrong." - Kwai Chang Caine

    Every scenario is different from the perspective of the "victim."

    As to the innnocents, I would try to avoid collateral damage, caused by myself or the yegg, even if my life were at stake... But in order to do that, I have to try to save myself first.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  12. #26
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    grab chest, gasp, wince, fake heart attack.........................
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men in a society, over the course of time they create for themselves a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that glorifies it."
    - Frederic Bastiat

  13. #27
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    Wasn't there a post recently about a Martial Arts instructor stabbed to death? Sometimes things don't go the way one expects. One has to do what one has to do ... and hope for the best.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

  14. #28
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by OldVet View Post
    One has to do what one has to do ... and hope for the best.
    Short, simple and spot on.

  15. #29
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    Someone walks up to you and whispers, "I have a gun under my coat, in my hand, pointed right at you. Walk in front of me and don't say a word or I will kill you."
    Quote Originally Posted by buckeyeLCPL View Post
    This thread brings to mind the saying "If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail."

    Distance and the ability to move is your friend in a lethal encounter.
    Distance is a great idea. I'm all for it, when possible. But with a gun poking into one's ribs from behind and a motivated killer holding that gun, the phrase "get distance" is easily said, hard to achieve.

    In such a situation, the admonishment about avoiding seeing everything as "a nail" is a bit misplaced, too. With a gun in the ribs, it's bloody difficult to not think of one's own concealed firearm as a valid candidate tool for getting out of the situation. Pulling that "card" doesn't help, when a firearm's in the ribs and one of the items in the scenario one must deal with in order to survive.

    Now, that all being said, there ain't nothin' for certain in a crowd. Oh, I suppose it's possible to duck and run, though unlikely with a gun stuck in the ribs. It's possible to feign complying but then taking advantage of the would-be killer if an opportunity to turn the tables presents itself. That's probably the most likely option, if looking for choices that will yield the best chance of surviving the situation.

    As others have said, I would make the best decision possible based on my training and the specific circumstances. Likely, initial partial compliance, making noise and making it clear (via a loud question or two) he's here with a gun and murder in mind, then looking for an opportunity to attempt taking control of that gun that's been pointed at me the moment he shows that his attention has been diverted from me to the surrounding mess I'm making. I might well get shot for my efforts, yes. But I won't simply go down blindly and meekly. And I won't allow myself to be taken to a more "private" area.

    While it's great to imagine "saving" all those around us, in such a situation at best one can hope to avoid harming those around us. As for everyone else, they'll need to rely upon sudden awareness of the threat to help them gain their own distance as best they can. Yes, I'd hope to have the opportunity to take control of the situation, preferably when it's in a space that's free of innocents. But the would-be murderer in my face hasn't asked me what I want; my control is somewhat limited. If it comes to shooting in which I've got control of the shooting, I'll certainly do what I can to avoid innocents. No guarantees, with a would-be murderer in my back/face.

    In such a scenario, there aren't a lot of choices. Being a H2H expert would be peachy. Not everyone is. Even many of those with much experience in those areas won't get cleanly through such a situation.
    Last edited by ccw9mm; October 15th, 2010 at 05:51 PM. Reason: grammar, spelling
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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  16. #30
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Very well put.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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