Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk - Page 4

Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk

This is a discussion on Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by MitchellCT As a general rule the "reasonable man" standard is not geared toward hindsight, but what would the reasonable man, in your ...

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  1. #46
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    As a general rule the "reasonable man" standard is not geared toward hindsight, but what would the reasonable man, in your situation, knowing/feeling/believing what you did at that moment do.

    That is a double edged sword in that it generally prohibits Monday morning quarterbacking
    Right. My point was, while a statute based on the "reasonable man" standard sounds fine in that it allows a person to legally decide on the fly at the moment, it's important to know that it's OTHERS who, with the gift of 20:20 hindsight, get to ultimately determine whether what a person did was kosher. In a very real sense, it's the "monday morning quarterbacks" who get to ultimately determine justifiability of a person's actions, not the person himself. And while it's nice to think and hope that in no cases do the jurors know any more than the intended victim knew at the time, the mere fact such judging is done after the fact means it does occur from time to time.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.


  2. #47
    Member Array carguy2244's Avatar
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    He's at contact distance, so am I.
    I draw, rotate, and shoot.

  3. #48
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I have no other reason but to believe that he is telling the truth.
    A lot is going to depend on what YOU believe, and what the reasonable person would do under the exact same circumstances.

    Howdy Mrs Lima,

    I'll give you an example, although it may not be a good one:

    Let's say I have a man rushing towards me while I am holding him at gunpoint and have told him to not move. He says something to the effect that he is going to take my gun and kill me with it.

    Now the smart man or woman in these circumstances would most likely stop moving when told to stop moving. Not our genius here. Instead he decides to rush me after verbalizing what he will do, with my gun, to me. I can only believe that he has the means and ability to take my weapon and use it on me, as he stated he would, since the "normal" reaction to such a situation is 180 degrees from what is displayed.

    I hope that helps to clarify things in your mind for you. I'm no lawyer, and I didn't stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night either. It will be my job, with the assistance of my attorney, to convince the triers of the fact that I acted in an appropriate manner, knowing what I knew, and believing as I did.

    Maybe a better example would be a "furtive movement shooting". If you make a move that can only be interpreted as going for a gun, even if you have no gun, I can reasonably assume that you are going for a gun and respond appropriately.

    Biker

  4. #49
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    "Maybe a better example would be a "furtive movement shooting". If you make a move that can only be interpreted as going for a gun, even if you have no gun, I can reasonably assume that you are going for a gun and respond appropriately."

    These have been labeled "State of Mind" shootings and have been upheld as justified on a number of occasions.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  5. #50
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    While anything is possible, it is good to keep some perspective on reality. The rarity of something as described in the OP happening to someone, is only surpassed by the even greater rarity that someone would try such without a weapon.

    Bingo. Couldn't agree more. It's why I call most, not all...just most, of these hypothetical "scenerios" fantastical. While anything could happen, most of the scenerios I've read on here lean further toward fiction than reality.

    They are amusing and fun to play out in the imagination, but not much more. I like to play along but don't put any real stock into them.

  6. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by GunGeezer View Post
    I am 67 years old, overweight and riddled with osteoartritis. I wake up and go to sleep in pain. I have had my right hip replaced and am in dire need of a new left hip. I usually need a cane to walk. I'm not going anywhere that I don't want to go with anyone I don't want to go with. At the word "gun", I would turn to my left or whatever direction would put the most of my body mass between his gun and my heart, draw and shoot, and keep shooting until the threat stops or I have to reload. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Did I mention that I'm sometimes referred to as crusty. The longer I live the more cynical I get about the future of the human race. Election years tend to have that effect on me. Survival is my prime directive. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings or come off as inhumane.
    What he said, works for me.
    quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

  7. #52
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    For everyone who would respond to the OP's scenario by repsonding with immediate physical violence, I hope your state law allows that. In Texas it is pretty clear. From Penal Code chapter nine section thirty one titled Self Defense.
    (b) The use of force against another is not justified:

    (1) in response to verbal provocation alone;
    Until he does more than talk verbal provocation is all you have. Unless your local laws are different, respond with physical violence and you will probably be eating a lot of holiday dinners with a spork.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  8. #53
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    I believe that is during a confrontation with another, not during the commission of a felony. The code also states the following re the use of force when an attemp is being made to kidnap you.



    SUBCHAPTER C. PROTECTION OF PERSONS

    Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b), a person is justified in using force against another when and to the degree the actor reasonably believes the force is immediately necessary to protect the actor against the other's use or attempted use of unlawful force. The actor's belief that the force was immediately necessary as described by this subsection is presumed to be reasonable if the actor:
    (1) knew or had reason to believe that the person against whom the force was used:
    (A) unlawfully and with force entered, or was attempting to enter unlawfully and with force, the actor's occupied habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment;
    (B) unlawfully and with force removed, or was attempting to remove unlawfully and with force, the actor from the actor's habitation, vehicle, or place of business or employment; or
    (C) was committing or attempting to commit aggravated kidnapping, murder, sexual assault, aggravated sexual assault, robbery, or aggravated robbery;

    Sec. 20.04. AGGRAVATED KIDNAPPING. (a) A person commits an offense if he intentionally or knowingly abducts another person with the intent to:
    (1) hold him for ransom or reward;
    (2) use him as a shield or hostage;
    (3) facilitate the commission of a felony or the flight after the attempt or commission of a felony;
    (4) inflict bodily injury on him or violate or abuse him sexually;
    (5) terrorize him or a third person; or
    (6) interfere with the performance of any governmental or political function.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  9. #54
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    To me the BG here does not want to draw attention so draw it. Reply with "You have a what?" or similar phrase and get people notice the situation. I believe it was Guantes who mentioned outside does not have to be a bad thing. Less crowded yes, a dark abandoned alley no. You have to go with what you know in this situation and do whatever you think you can handle as far as your own defense.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  10. #55
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    I believe that is during a confrontation with another, not during the commission of a felony. The code also states the following re the use of force when an attemp is being made to kidnap you.



    SUBCHAPTER C. PROTECTION OF PERSONS

    Sec. 9.31. SELF-DEFENSE. (a) Except as provided in Subsection (b),*snip*.
    That is Subsection (b)
    The bit about altercation is only a part of Subsection (b). Subsection (b) is when the use of force is not justified.

    If one wanted to "extend to the absurd" the logic that one would be justified in shooting in this situation (in Texas) it would logically follow that any time we saw a teen age boy groping his girlfriend and her resisting him in any fashion that we could reasonably believe he was attempting an aggravated sexual assault and we would be justified in shooting him under 9.33.
    If you want to bet your freedom on that go right ahead, I am not going to.

    IANAL but as I read 9.31 it seems pretty plain to me that until a weapon is displayed or until the BG actually touches someone in the scenario described in the OP we have nothing more than spoken words and our fear. Spoken words are verbal provocation and nothing more.
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  11. #56
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Lets extend the other way. By your logic if an individual comes up to you with his hand in his pocket and says, "Give me your wallet.", you could not use force against him as it was nothing more than spoken words. A little absurd?
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  12. #57
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    What people need to start understanding when they go off on tangents about law is this quote: de minimis non curat lex .

    Please consider that in the IANAL tangents into insanity.

    Thank you...

  13. #58
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Thanks, Mitchell, for making me look that up.

    Here's what I get:

    "The law does not concern itself with trifles; - a principle of law, that even if a technical violation of a law appears to exist according to the letter of the law, if the effect is too small to be of consequence, the violation of the law will not be considered as a sufficient cause of action, whether in civil or criminal proceedings."

    So, maybe, if a guy has his hand in his pocket, and says, "gimme your wallet." in a non threatening manner... you couldn't "drop him" because his action, though illegal, was just a trifle, "too small to be of consequence." HMMMM.

    At what point in THAT contiuum are you allowed to defend?
    You say, "I don't think so."
    He's got a zippo lighter in his pocket and clicks it open... maybe it sounds like a cocking motion or flicking off a saftey. (I know "Gran Torino" and all of that, but the ruse has been around a lot longer.)
    Now what?

    Or are you talking the converse? I don't think so.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  14. #59
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    Would you be justified in shooting if his hand was out of his pocket but since he was standing next to you it was simply not visible?
    And getting back the definition of aggravated kidnapping,
    (b) A person commits an offense if the person intentionally or knowingly abducts another person and uses or exhibits a deadly weapon during the commission of the offense.
    So you shoot the guy. If they find a deadly weapon in his pocket you win the prize and get to go home. If they do not find a weapon life gets complicated again. What is the physical evidence going to show?

    Remember in the OP the bystanders are oblivious and the guy whispered to you and never laid a finger on you. No one else heard what he said to you. Now all you have to do is get the police, prosecutor, grand jury, and a maybe a trial jury to believe that this person who did nothing more than whisper to you in front of dozens of people and possibly on camera was reasonably believed to be an immediate lethal threat.
    All you are going to have to justify your use of force (deadly force by some responses) is your say so, and you are the accused. And those accused of murder never lie, do they?
    Any guesses on what percentage of murders at one time or another were claimed to be justified? More or less "it was an accident, I didn't mean to shoot him."?

    But why would you just shoot someone who walked up to you in a store?

    Why would this guy just pick you at random in the store? Why should a jury believe the roles as stated in the OP have not been reversed here?
    Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis

  15. #60
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    MCP1810,

    I didn't say anything about shooting, I said, "use force".
    I see nothing that states that (b) is required for (a).
    Are you saying that no use of defensive force is justified in the scenario described?
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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