Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk
This is a discussion on Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; I'm not saying that...
going back to the OP... maybe we do go outside... maybe I do "faint" trying to control the gun hand...
October 18th, 2010 12:10 PM
I'm not saying that...
going back to the OP... maybe we do go outside... maybe I do "faint" trying to control the gun hand...
F2F, close in... what?
It could be worse!
October 18th, 2010 12:11 PM
This is a relatively simple area of law, one that if you are carrying a handgun on a daily basis, you should know enough about to answer these questions in short order.
I don't engage with people who learned criminal law on TV or the internet (by my reading of your comments, you fit the bill), and quite frankly, you and I have history of rude interaction in the past which means I'm not wasting my time addressing you in any substantive manner as you either won't appreciate it, won't understand it, will use it as an opportunity to attempt to argue with me...or all of the above.
Given that...I'm afraid you are going to have to deal with your questions on your own; however, I will give you a hint:
Subjective & Objective reasonability test.
As I said, self defense is a relatively simple area of law. If you cannot answer the questions with those hints, then a law review article with full case cites wouldn't assist you very much either.
October 18th, 2010 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by limatunes
Right there on site in the store at the floor with everyone and God as my witness.
Am I going to draw my sidearm on this person? No.
But as he/she was _foolish_ enough to tell me exactly how (means) and to what degree they are armed (active rather than passive) AND where I can expect to find their tool of assault, I will take that information and _exploit_ it to my benefit.
I would think to go hands on being sure to keep my body away from the bore of the gun.
I would think to jab the person deep into their trachea or to chop Adams Apple (male) so as to induce immediate choke response as a diversion to weaken them so that I can disarm the threat if not follow up with further hand to to hand contact to disable this threat.
I would think to spray this person with my OC/CS direct to his face, mouth and eyes at contact distance to disable if not neutralize this person AND allow _me_ ability to flee and escape to safety.
I would not think twice,nor feel badly, about stabbing this person in the throat with either my folder or fixed blade knife...Which I typically do carry stowed covertly in an easy to access pocket.
If for some reason I am unarmed (NPE area) then I use that persons own weapon against them...And/or improvise using my body, his body and the rest of the hard and soft world around me as weapons.
That there are other people among the world and space I'm within 360 degrees makes no difference to me.
It could be a hospital or me among my daughters school event as children stand nearby in a choir.
If and that is a big IF (!), any other persons than the threat are harmed...That blame falls directly and squarely on the shoulders of the threat who has direct control over the firearm as wielded.
Not me defending myself, from that armed threat.
My choice to not comply is not dependent on who might be around me.
My choice to be defiant is dependent on my desire to protect my skin, contain the blood within my body and desire to continue ability to breathe.
But...By nature and life experience I would choose to resist a threat if at all I thought the threat to be 1) Serious& Credible (able) and 2) My survival odds in the immediate to not INCREASE by allowing myself to be moved (!).
For example if I were contacted in a parking lot area and the threat were foolish enough to state that I should walk toward a crowd of people and/or toward loose objects that I can make use of as an improvised weapon (i.e. Walk into and through a store as rather than out of it)...Then in that case waiting supports my own prime directive whihc is to survive, by any and all means necessary.
As based on knowing myself very well _as well_ as multiple past experiences similar to this scenario (being asked/told to go elsewhere as setup for an assault by threat singular and plural), I know I would not panic AND I know the very first thought in my mind would be to analyze the threat and looks for weaknesses to exploit.
I would not want to fight anyone anywhere; Especially not in a store among children and innocents.
But...I will fight to the last breath and think my way through so as to not be the next dad/brother/son to come up abducted & missing, or Black man later purported in the news as being a victim of X on Y crime.
IMHO women especially should have same thought and position as they much more often than a grown man do suffer exactly this sort of contact among public spaces. Fight. What do you have to lose, other than your freedom and life.
I would not in the immediate of defending myself be too concerned about what a jury might think. It's too late at this time to have such thoughts.
My focus would be 'How can I right now survive this encounter?!'. And that means either flight (my preferred nobody gets harmed option) or fight. Fight until the threat either stops (by choice), or is stopped (by my actions), or I am stopped by the threat. I'd hope to survive so as to hire someone like MitchellCT to explain these things to persons among a jury.
"You can’t separate peace from freedom because no one can be at peace unless he has his freedom." - Malcolm X
"Be peaceful, be courteous, obey the law, respect everyone. But if someone puts his hand on you, send him to the cemetery." - Malcolm X
"I won't be wronged. I won't be insulted. I won't be laid a-hand on. I don't do these things to other people, and I require the same from them." - John Wayne, As featured in 'The Shootist'
"Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy
"A license to carry a concealed weapon does not make you a free-lance policeman." - Florida Div. of Licensing
October 18th, 2010 01:54 PM
that wont be decided on site..and for your information in court you would be the lady who has multiple online videos showing a rather unusually good knowledge of weapons and their uses including firearms and blades....not damning mind you but takes away a little of the cute little innocent mom in the eyes of some...
Originally Posted by limatunes
October 18th, 2010 01:59 PM
i'm with janq on this one...i'm backing him against the nearest obstacle while it turn into him...if he has hand in his pocket he is off balance and the gun has been thrust to the side...from there his throat is my first target...after that its whatever soft spot is available while i let everyone know he has a gun and my intention is to make sure he doesnt get a chance to use it...i have little concern for onlookers as at that point they are on their own...my intention is to disable him and make a gunshot unlikely but in the event it happens i hope its in the narrow confines of the checkout aisle i am taking him down in...he will lose his ability to breathe and see first...after that with any luck i choose whether he loses the ability to live or not as i assess the threat while defeating it...
i dont want to go outside because i dont want him to have anyplace to run to or an accomplice waiting in a vehicle who can help him...i want him on my terms and not where he wants me...i dont know what his plans are and what i like most is he doesnt know what mine are either...the advantage i have is he doesnt know i have a defense and he has already let me know where his is....
October 18th, 2010 02:12 PM
Guantes, I am sorry if it looks like I am singling you out. That is not my intention. I would have no problem using reasonable and escalating force as necessary. But there have been multiple posts in this thread where folks are not even saying a word to the guy, they are just drawing and shooting.
That to me looks like a quick road to a life time of bologna sandwiches for lunch at the expense of the taxpayers.
All I am saying is that if I were on a jury or a grand jury and this was the case before me, it would take a little more than just the word of the accused that the use of lethal force was justified here.
Infowars- Proving David Hannum right on a daily basis
October 18th, 2010 02:20 PM
No problem. There is nothing wrong with disagreement in an attitude of gentlemanly decorum.
I don't think there is any doubt that this type of incident could present more problems than one in which things were more visual and clear cut.
"I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".
October 19th, 2010 07:23 AM
If he got the drop on me like that I would say fine here carry this bag for me, if he took it I would give him another, and another, then run like Forest Gump and put people and distance between us. If he refused the bags I'm trying to hand him then he get's the Progresso can in the bag upside the head, and once again I do my best Forest Gump Imitation.
October 19th, 2010 08:05 AM
In the simplest possible explanation,i would comply until we were out of the store and in the parking lot.Wide open area,not as many people in close proximity to get shot if i mess up.Fake a leg cramp,turn slightly,disarm.Of course,my mind reeled far away the last time i was in a situation like this,so who knows what i might do.When someone has to think on the fly,you hadd better be calm.
October 19th, 2010 10:23 AM
This might work or you might turn the muzzle enough to miss you but get the checkout gal shot.
Originally Posted by WHEC724
Also, Ill take the liberty to add to the scenario. He has both hands in his coat pockets, so do you grab his right, or his left hand? How do you manage to get a grip on his wrist through the jacket? Can you even find his wrist, or the gun through the jacket?
Make a scene seems to be the best idea.
If I let him lead me out the door it's only until I get the brick wall of the building behind him as a backstop. No way I'm getting off the sidewalk away from the store front with him.
October 19th, 2010 03:14 PM
Well, since it's not happenig right now to me, I have no clue. But, the key when a gun is pointed at you is to gain control of their weapon THEN draw yours.
I was in a situation (minus the bystanders) where I attempted to control the BGs weapon and this was with me starting from the trunk area of an SUV to the drivers seat with the gun on me the whole time. I was not injured, but he was.
Worst case, we'd move outside then it's time to rock. Moving to a secondary location is very bad, but sometimes it's in route to the second location that we have the best opportunity. For me, I'll fight the moment things go south unless it puts others in risk.
This may sound cocky or too sure of myself, but I know what I'm capable of and I have a couple instances to back it up. I hopefully will not allow that to cloud my judgement, but I am NOT going to be taken against my will no matter what. Where's he going to take me? My car? I'll drop the keys and my car CANNOT be started without the key fob (there's actually no key, it starts by pressing a button with the key fob in your pocket. Now what, his car? There will be an opportunity or I WILL make one.
I'm going home at the end of this, 50/50 that he'll never go home after the end of this. My hands, my knife, my teeth, my gun, my flashlight, my spray and brain may be used here in any combination.
After being taken against my will once in the past, the one thing I'm sure of is that I won't be going anywhere beyond the parking lot with his guy. I'll leave in a bag before I leave with a badguy.
Train for this. Train to handle another gun BEFORE handling yours. Though this scenario is a little less likely, someone trying to control you with their gun is. Commit to the fight and STAY IN IT. Hit them twice as hard and with extreme violence. Turn their fight into YOUR fight.
I'm typing on my phone, so I may be repeating myself here, but the only answer I see here from the info given, is to let him walk you away from the people (even if it's only 20 feet away) and now do your best to control their gun and put them down. You may get shot, just make sure you shoot them more.
** or, you could do a tactical backflip, land on your back and shoot upwards from the ground! ;)
Proven combat techniques may not be flashy and may require a bit more physical effort on the part of the shooter. Further, they may not win competition matches, but they will help ensure your survival in a shooting or gunfight on the street. ~Paul Howe
October 19th, 2010 09:19 PM
I guess I'm alone on this, but I would stop in my tracks and drop the bag in my left hand and turn to my left then get down to pick stuff up. I've been in stores where people are practically shoving to get to their cars. For him to pull that stunt there tells me he is bluffing unless he's one of those super spies on TV. I'll take a chance on the bluff in these conditions. If he kills me I guessed wrong, but I really suspect he will be moved along by the crowd and leave. I may even sit down and not feel well. At my age nobody would question that.
If I guessed right I'll call 911 and report the incident. I probably got a look at the fool when I turned so that should help. Of course in my city, if it doesn't bleed they may take the phone statement and ask me to come down to file something. You know the drill, "Did you SEE a gun?", etc.
October 19th, 2010 10:57 PM
Maybe alot of men havent imagined the same scenarios as women have. Or seen themselves in certain situations. I have imagined...and believe I would...do those things. I hope I would.....and I hope I never find out.
Originally Posted by EB31
Fortune favors the bold.
Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.
The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)
October 20th, 2010 02:01 AM
In this scenario, if I believed the threat to be credible, I might initially comply, just to get a little distance from the crowd if that was possible, but I would not go outside the store. I want to be in view of the store cameras when I begin, as some others have suggested, yelling, drawing attention to the situation, and attacking, trying to knock him down and prevent him from pulling his gun or at least keep him from easily aiming at me. If he does start shooting, I would hope no innocent bystanders get hit, but if they do, I would not consider it my fault. I would not draw and fire unless I was certain I could without endangering innocents.
All that is easy to say sitting here at my keyboard, but what might happen in real life? This scenario in extremely unlikely to happen to me, a fairly large, 62 year old man in decent shape, not rich enough for kidnapping, and with no particular reason to be targeted by a hit man or psycho. More likely to happen to a woman, and a woman in this situation would certainly not want to go anywhere with the BG. Better to scream and fight right there, maybe die right there, but it could only be worse for her if she went with him.
How a politician stands on the Second Amendment tells you how he or she views you as an individual; as a trustworthy & productive citizen, or as part of an unruly crowd that needs to be lorded over, controlled, supervised and taken care of.
October 20th, 2010 03:10 AM
I didn't see anyone mention changing the vertical angle - either dropping down for an upward shot or putting your attacker down for a downward shot - to get others out of your possible line of fire. More precisely, to get your line of fire away from them.
I'm not sure what I'd do in that scenario. Depends upon a whole lot of observations at the time. One thing I AM sure of: I wouldn't let the attacker take me anywhere. Crime Scene B is ALWAYS worse than Crime Scene A.
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