Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk - Page 6

Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk

This is a discussion on Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by TedBeau This might work or you might turn the muzzle enough to miss you but get the checkout gal shot. Also, Ill ...

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  1. #76
    Distinguished Member Array bladenbullet's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    This might work or you might turn the muzzle enough to miss you but get the checkout gal shot.
    Also, Ill take the liberty to add to the scenario. He has both hands in his coat pockets, so do you grab his right, or his left hand? How do you manage to get a grip on his wrist through the jacket? Can you even find his wrist, or the gun through the jacket?

    Make a scene seems to be the best idea.

    If I let him lead me out the door it's only until I get the brick wall of the building behind him as a backstop. No way I'm getting off the sidewalk away from the store front with him.
    if both his hands are in his pockets he is at a terrible disadvantage as it would be very easy to apply some pressure and take him off balance...you dont need to grab arms...with none available to protect himself he has left all of his vital places wide open to attack...the gun isnt your problem...he is...he has made it rather easy to overtake him by making himself vunerable....there are too many people going to guns or waiting until there is a suitable backstop to go to guns here...this is a close contact encounter and there is a very good chance that it will not require a gun to control it....

    waiting to get outside gives him space also....going to the draw against the drop is a risky proposition that more than likely will get you shot even if it works...taking close quarters control probably involves less risk....


  2. #77
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    There is one thing I found interesting, that I didn't see anyone mention. There is no indication of whether the bg has approached you from the back, front, left or right. I consider this realtive to any anticipated action.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  3. #78
    Senior Member Array Luis50's Avatar
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    This would likely happen to a lady so, I asked my wife and her response would be along the lines of;

    "MF#*r are you crazy? I just got off work, i'm tired, my feet hurt and you want to do what? Hold on, i'm calling the cops right now".

    I said, way to go baby.
    Luis

    "Everybody's got a plan, 'til they get hit".

    Mike Tyson

  4. #79
    VIP Member Array zacii's Avatar
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    Smack him upside the head with the latest Cosmopolitan
    Trust in God and keep your powder dry

    "A heavily armed citizenry is not about overthrowing the government; it is about preventing the government from overthrowing liberty. A people stripped of their right of self defense is defenseless against their own government." -source

  5. #80
    Member Array Northface's Avatar
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    He wants you to go somewhere else for some reason that is ultimately not going to be good for you. Right now, it is one on one. Once out the door, is there a car with more of his friends waiting?

    He is whispering. The gun is hidden in his pocket. He does NOT want to draw attention to himself. He is expecting compliance.

    I am not going. As mentioned before, fake a heart attack; scream and yell. Attract the attention he does not want.

    I am not responsible for damage to the sheep, unless I shoot one.
    "A gun is a tool, Marion. No better and no worse than any other tool - an axe, a shovel, or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that." --from "Shane" (Alan Ladd) -1953

  6. #81
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Train for this. Train to handle another gun BEFORE handling yours. Though this scenario is a little less likely, someone trying to control you with their gun is. Commit to the fight and STAY IN IT. Hit them twice as hard and with extreme violence. Turn their fight into YOUR fight.
    Most excellent post, and spot on mate.

    I'm not sure what I'd do in that scenario. Depends upon a whole lot of observations at the time. One thing I AM sure of: I wouldn't let the attacker take me anywhere. Crime Scene B is ALWAYS worse than Crime Scene A.
    You got that right.

    Biker

  7. #82
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Luis50 View Post
    This would likely happen to a lady so, I asked my wife and her response would be along the lines of;

    "MF#*r are you crazy? I just got off work, i'm tired, my feet hurt and you want to do what? Hold on, i'm calling the cops right now".

    I said, way to go baby.
    LOL, thats the best reply so far!

  8. #83
    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I didnt see anyone here mention identifying the person, or attempting to. Do I know the person? Why do they want me? What do I read on their face? Intent, resolve? If they come up on the side or behind me with that line, I am still going to try and see their face. Is it a man, is he much bigger than me?

    I decided a long time ago that I am not going anywhere with anyone....I dont like to say never, but this is the guideline that I will follow. This is well documented as foolish for women to do. I am not leaving a group of people to go who knows where?

    Depending on what I read in that person's face, I would either 'faint', meaning drop like a rock. I'm 5'10", not thin, not fat. Or I would engage him verbally..."what? what did you say What do you have there?" and start increasing distance between us. "Get away from me! No!"

    Yeah I'll call his bluff on shooting me there, I have to. I am not likely going to be any safer at any point after that. Backing away, I'm reaching in my purse unless I see real intent to use/movement trained on me under that coat where they supposedly have a gun. If I draw anything (if I think it's safe to, that they are bluffing) I'll pull out pepper spray, not my gun. Too close quarters IMO, to him/her and to bystanders. And no idea if lethal force truly required altho as written, I think I would believe so.
    Fortune favors the bold.

    Freedom doesn't mean safe, it means free.

    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

  9. #84
    VIP Member Array Eagleks's Avatar
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    Well, a case somewhat similar happened here..... the good guy pulled his gun while seeming to comply and walk as instructed, pointed his gun over his shoulder and shot the BG in the head. DOA for the BG.
    I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts. --- Will Rogers ---
    Chief Justice John Roberts : "I don't see how you can read Heller and not take away from it the notion that the Second Amendment...was extremely important to the framers in their view of what liberty meant."

  10. #85
    VIP Member Array Sticks's Avatar
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    I did not read all 80+ odd posts just the first 20, and it seemed to me that a lot of people had missed the gist of the OP subject - limiting the danger to others in your vicinity.

    Now I am responsible for each and every projectile that leaves the muzzle of my weapon. Some lawyers would argue that I am responsible for those that leave the BGs weapon as well since my actions compelled the BG to discharge their weapon. There are a few options that I can do to control this, but they are not at the top of my list of priorities.

    In every "Scenario" where this type of question comes up, the first thing that comes to mind is change the angle of trajectory. If I have risk of hitting non combatants on a horizontal plane then change the angle up or down (up if inside, down if outdoors for obvious reasons).

    In the given OP conditions, I am leading so I can guide the BG to a point that is a little less congested, the BG is presumed to be in my intimate zone (within 18") and limited visibility of my arms. Presuming that the BG has not physically grabbed me, I can discretely start to retrieve my weapon from storage, and from retention at an upward angle (indoors) turn around to face the BG (fast or slow pending perceived awareness of the BG) and fire until the threat has been neutralized.

    Lots of different ways to handle this. Lots of things to go wrong as well, I.E. the BG has taken a grasp of my strong hand ergo discretely drawing my weapon weak hand is not gonna happen, but doable if grabbed on my weak side. What am I carrying in my hands at the checkout? Is it usable as a blunt weapon, makeshift mace (any liquid or aerosol)? Is throwing a temper tantrum that would make a 2 year old blush viable for a distraction to throw the BG off? The BG wants me to leave so the initial plan is not to kill me on the spot, what is flat out refusing and turning to face the BG going to gain?

    IMO in any situation that by leaving with the BG (abduction) my life is forfeit. I will not be a sheep culled from the herd and will do everything in my power to prevent it.
    Sticks

    Grasseater // Grass~eat~er noun, often attributive \ˈgras-ē-tər\
    A person who is incapable of independent thought; a person who is herd animal-like in behavior; one who cannot distinguish between right and wrong; a foolish person.
    See also Sheep

  11. #86
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sticks View Post

    Now I am responsible for each and every projectile that leaves the muzzle of my weapon. Some lawyers would argue that I am responsible for those that leave the BGs weapon as well since my actions compelled the BG to discharge their weapon. There are a few options that I can do to control this, but they are not at the top of my list of priorities.
    And others would argue that the person who forces you to shoot is responsible for any lead that flies...

  12. #87
    Member Array rangefinder's Avatar
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    Initially I thought going outside then resisting. But what if he has your limo waiting.

    First one must think the BG's aim is to do no good. But if the "I have a gun" is simply a threat to force the victim and you react violently then the law and lawyers are going to have a field day.

    This is a difficult situation. If it's o'dark thirty and at the local 7-11 suspect the worst. If it's at the local JC Penny at the mall then I think I would doubt and make a scene. Hopefully the BG hitails it. If not then hopefully making a scene gives me the diversion I needed to respond to the BG. Regardless of what transpires life is going to be difficult for a while.

  13. #88
    Member Array violinjim's Avatar
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    Fall down faking a heart attack. When he bolts, snag his ankle if able to, shove my .38 in the back of his head offering to "decorate the pavement with his brains" until the police arrive.

    Or just play dead until he's gone and the situation is over.

    Jim

  14. #89
    Member Array gunsite's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by limatunes View Post
    In a number of the scenarios posted here information is based upon what is directly related to the threat and how we would respond to it but not about the innocent bystanders within the scenario.

    One of the four rules of gun safety is "Be aware of your target and what is beyond."

    Over and over again we heard about multiple misses with a few hits in shootings on both sides of the legal line and it's certainly not unheard of to find a news release of an innocent bystander being wounded in a shootout.

    Often, blanket statements are issues such as "I would never let this happen," etc.

    One of those statements is in regards to letting the bad guy "move" you by commanding you into a room, car, ally, etc, etc. Complying certainly puts you at a greater risk but compliance (even partial) could decrease the risk to others.

    So let me present you with a scenario based on the rule of "Be aware of your target and what is beyond" and ask you to explain how your reaction would change depending on "what is beyond."

    You are doing some shopping on a random day and it seems to be unseasonably busy. You were rushed through line as you are collecting your bags as the next person is already being rung up. Someone walks up to you and whispers, "I have a gun under my coat, in my hand, pointed right at you. Walk in front of me and don't say a word or I will kill you."

    The people around you do not have the situational awareness to know what is going on... it's all on you.

    There are people all around you. Behind you, in front of you. Kids with their parents, teens hanging out by the water fountain behind the badguy. An old guy reading the paper to your left. A mother scolding her child for whining for candy to your right. A long line of customers and the checkout gal just over your shoulder.

    Even the path all the way to the door is scattered with people coming in and out.

    What do you do?
    Its decision time... First thing is, where's your weapon, and how fast can you draw it and hit the target... if you decide to take action.

  15. #90
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Luis50 View Post
    This would likely happen to a lady so, I asked my wife and her response would be along the lines of;

    "MF#*r are you crazy? I just got off work, i'm tired, my feet hurt and you want to do what? Hold on, i'm calling the cops right now".

    I said, way to go baby.

    LOL, thats the best reply so far!

    Whatever gets attention and mucks up the plans for a silent getaway, yes.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

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