Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk

Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk

This is a discussion on Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; In a number of the scenarios posted here information is based upon what is directly related to the threat and how we would respond to ...

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  1. #1
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    Increasing Personal Risk to Decrease Public Risk

    In a number of the scenarios posted here information is based upon what is directly related to the threat and how we would respond to it but not about the innocent bystanders within the scenario.

    One of the four rules of gun safety is "Be aware of your target and what is beyond."

    Over and over again we heard about multiple misses with a few hits in shootings on both sides of the legal line and it's certainly not unheard of to find a news release of an innocent bystander being wounded in a shootout.

    Often, blanket statements are issues such as "I would never let this happen," etc.

    One of those statements is in regards to letting the bad guy "move" you by commanding you into a room, car, ally, etc, etc. Complying certainly puts you at a greater risk but compliance (even partial) could decrease the risk to others.

    So let me present you with a scenario based on the rule of "Be aware of your target and what is beyond" and ask you to explain how your reaction would change depending on "what is beyond."

    You are doing some shopping on a random day and it seems to be unseasonably busy. You were rushed through line as you are collecting your bags as the next person is already being rung up. Someone walks up to you and whispers, "I have a gun under my coat, in my hand, pointed right at you. Walk in front of me and don't say a word or I will kill you."

    The people around you do not have the situational awareness to know what is going on... it's all on you.

    There are people all around you. Behind you, in front of you. Kids with their parents, teens hanging out by the water fountain behind the badguy. An old guy reading the paper to your left. A mother scolding her child for whining for candy to your right. A long line of customers and the checkout gal just over your shoulder.

    Even the path all the way to the door is scattered with people coming in and out.

    What do you do?


  2. #2
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    This thread brings to mind the saying "If the only tool in your toolbox is a hammer, everything starts to look like a nail."

    Distance and the ability to move is your friend in a lethal encounter. The more distance you have and move you can move, the more likely you will survive the encounter (it of course works both ways, for you and the bg, however, simply surviving the encounter is far more important than making sure the BG ends up easting some hollowpoints).

    If it is already contact distance in a crowded place, I'm probably not going for my gun. Hopefully I'd be able to think up something on the fly to disrupt the BG's OODA loop, either in H2H, with a knife, or something completely unexpected like saying no and walking away.

    Of course, this would probably work better for females than it would for me, but start screaming about how you aren't going anywhere with him or something along those lines. Really I see a scenario like this playing out that the BG would really expect you to comply, probably thinking easy target, and anything that disrupts the image of being an easy target would have a decent probability of him stopping and running away.

    The only people I can think of who would want to kidnap me would be to make a video to show on al-jazeera, and I'm not gonna let that happen, so I'd go kicking and screaming in the store, so they wouldn't get the video they wanted, while attempting to avoid collateral damage. But that would almost certainly involve several trained BG's, so it is a bit different.
    Fortes Fortuna Juvat

    Former, USMC 0311, OIF/OEF vet
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  3. #3
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    What would I do?
    Make the best possible decision I could, based on my training, experience, equipment, circumstances and surroundings, etc, that would be subject to change on a second by second basis. It is probable that initial compliance would be the first step. I try to avoid always and never.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  4. #4
    VIP Member Array Paco's Avatar
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    I would like to say I would fall back on any training I got in my short stint in the Army, but that was so long ago. I would also like to think I would then revert back to the old neighborhood, but then the only guns that were pulled on me were either walking up to me or driving by me and cocked to the side.

    I would hope that I keep a level head and think of all the circumstances you pointed out, Lima, and either start to "comply" to simply get me in a better stance to slash or attempt to redirect and break an arm. This then makes me wonder, if I am able to redirect and he is able to squeeze the trigger then who did I just get shot? If I simply say no as Buckeye stated what if I got the one guy who doesn't care who sees him shoot someone out in the open, if I am shot and it is not immediatly fatal would I then have the wits about me (and proper muscle memory) to attack him with all that I have left and simply overpower him or to draw and return fire at the close range?

    I pray I never have to find out, but I pray if I do I will make it home.
    "Don't hit a man if you can possibly avoid it; but if you do hit him, put him to sleep." - Theodore Roosevelt

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  5. #5
    VIP Member Array tkruf's Avatar
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    Make a scene. You really think he will shoot you in the middle of a crowded store with video cameras recording everything? He will expect you to comply. When you don't, his plan is ruined. All attention will be drawn to him.
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  6. #6
    Senior Member Array Rotorblade's Avatar
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    I think it would be a mistake to allow the BG to move you outside the store.
    You would be better off creating a disturbance, drop your bags, refuse to move, take off in a different direction , whatever.....
    Anything to put a kink in the guys plans. Chances are he doesn't want to blast you in front of other people otherwise he wouldn't be moving you.
    At this point I'm probably not all that concerned about the safety of other people in the store.....right now it's all about me........

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    First of, not to derail your scenario but that was a long whispered dialog to listen to..LOL.... I feel more like I would be like "I have a gun under...." *Crack* ...yeah that was the sound of his elbow....
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  8. #8
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    For me, if he's close enough to whisper, then I can reach him. My response is control/break the gun wrist, complimented by overwhelming blunt trauma. I'm no ninja, but this wouldn't be my first rodeo either.

    Honestly, on this one I'm more interested to hear from folks here who are small in stature, rather then us knuckle-draggers
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  9. #9
    Member Array Sledzep01's Avatar
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    I would not move outside
    I would probably not take more than 5 steps. He is hoping for compliance, do not give it. While I agree you must take into consideration what is down range, that does not mean that their life is worth more than yours does it?
    Would he shoot you if you took 2 steps and tripped? Perhaps that is all the opening you need and now you would be shooting nearly vertically.
    Would he shoot you if you sneezed? Perhaps that is all the opening you need and now you would be able to break from his grip and move away.
    Would he shoot you if you ran away screaming GUN!!! like many fear an "ANTI" will do if they see your gun?
    I would probably start to take a step and drop everything I had while taking another step, if he has not shot me by now I would feel it was not a real threat that he would shoot me now and I would run to cover as a drew my weapon. As I moved I would scream HE HAS A GUN!!! People will have already been drawn to look at who dropped what, they will see you run and then turn to look at what you ran from. At that point you can defend yourself and possibly there is a LEO there shopping too....

    Sled

    If he were SENT to kill you, it would probably not be there in the store so he probably wants something else that he feels he will be more successful at getting after he moves you to another location. Do not go to that location.
    If in any future scenario your first alert to something going wrong is that you are already SHOT then that would be different.

    Sled

  10. #10
    VIP Member Array ctsketch's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WHEC724 View Post
    For me, if he's close enough to whisper, then I can reach him. My response is control/break the gun wrist, complimented by overwhelming blunt trauma. I'm no ninja, but this wouldn't be my first rodeo either.

    Honestly, on this one I'm more interested to hear from folks here who are small in stature, rather then us knuckle-draggers
    I'm small in stature, and my answer is no different than mine, if hes right behind me whispering his monologue...he is within reach and that is his mistake.
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  11. #11
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
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    Here's the thing...I am not responsible for the BG pulling the trigger and I'm not a martyr....if I can get away, I will....for some reason this person picked me as a target. I don't know why. If the BG chooses to pull the trigger on me and misses and hits a bystander...I would feel bad for the bystander.

    Where are you going with this?
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

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  12. #12
    Distinguished Member Array GunGeezer's Avatar
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    I am 67 years old, overweight and riddled with osteoartritis. I wake up and go to sleep in pain. I have had my right hip replaced and am in dire need of a new left hip. I usually need a cane to walk. I'm not going anywhere that I don't want to go with anyone I don't want to go with. At the word "gun", I would turn to my left or whatever direction would put the most of my body mass between his gun and my heart, draw and shoot, and keep shooting until the threat stops or I have to reload. I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6. Did I mention that I'm sometimes referred to as crusty. The longer I live the more cynical I get about the future of the human race. Election years tend to have that effect on me. Survival is my prime directive. Sorry if I hurt anyones feelings or come off as inhumane.

  13. #13
    VIP Member Array mcp1810's Avatar
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    I would call his bluff.
    Odds are if he is trying to take you away from all those witnesses what is going to happen there is not going to be any better than what resistance will earn you.
    Make a big loud stinking scene so you have the store surveillence video (if they have any) and a hundred eye witnesses.
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  14. #14
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    I will use my perceptions and training to do what I think gives me the best odds and lessens the danger to myself and other innocents in the area.

    Being that he's so close a disarm technique and a parry and slash with a blade may be the order of the day to buy me time to draw. In this crowded situation I may desire to draw and press the gun into him at a downward angle, using him and the floor as my backstop, I don't know, I would have to view the situation in person first. Feigning compliance may be the preferred tactic, but that remains to be determined, as I need to view the entire situation first.

    Biker

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    While in most situations, letting the bg move you from one location to another is considered extremely bad, I do not see that as the case here and in this case may be of advantage to me. Outside means a much lighter concentration of other people around us, this means less potential background targets. Outside will give me greater freedom for movement and direction. Outside is still in public view, not some hidden place like a cooler with no witnesses. Based on the described congestion inside, I would prefer to be outside as I think that it gives me greater freedom of action with less likelihood of collateral damage.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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