Sad/Something To Consider - Page 2

Sad/Something To Consider

This is a discussion on Sad/Something To Consider within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by kelcarry Imminent danger of death or great bodily injury from a robbery? Off-duty and, outside of having a firearm and supposedly a ...

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  1. #16
    VIP Member Array SpencerB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kelcarry View Post
    Imminent danger of death or great bodily injury from a robbery? Off-duty and, outside of having a firearm and supposedly a lot of training, the LEO is with his family in a crowded McDonalds. Sad story but should not have happened. It was just about money and really nothing more before the LEO made a bad decision.
    You don't know what the BG was thinking. He was committing armed robbery, who's to say he wasn't going to kill people at the next place he robbed? You can not assume that it is merely an armed robbery, you never know the thought process of a criminal and what might set him off to go from robbing to murder. It is a very tragic scene that a 9 year old lost her life and unfortunately that officer does have to live with that for the rest of his life. Everyone can critique that off duty officers actions now that it's over and we know what happened, but he made his decision on the fly and took down the suspect. If anyone is critiquing his actions more it's him, I bet he thinks about his decisions every day and no matter what he does those thoughts will never leave his mind.
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  2. #17
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Ummm... soooo.... devil's advocate here... If that LEO had done nothing and stood by while the BG came running out waving a gun and decided to shoot someone that was standing between him and the door because they didnt move fast enough how many of you would be saying he had been negligent in not engaging the BG and attempting to stop him? You can't predict what could have happened had this gone different. Armchair quarterbacks and people with 20/20 hindsight WEREN'T THERE.

    In my opinion the LEO did what he is paid and trained to do. He attempted to stop a BG with a gun in the commission of a felony. The loss of that poor little girl's life is horrible and heart wrenching... but the blame for it goes squarely on the BG.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  3. #18
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpencerB View Post
    You don't know what the BG was thinking. He was committing armed robbery, who's to say he wasn't going to kill people at the next place he robbed? You can not assume that it is merely an armed robbery, you never know the thought process of a criminal and what might set him off to go from robbing to murder. It is a very tragic scene that a 9 year old lost her life and unfortunately that officer does have to live with that for the rest of his life. Everyone can critique that off duty officers actions now that it's over and we know what happened, but he made his decision on the fly and took down the suspect. If anyone is critiquing his actions more it's him, I bet he thinks about his decisions every day and no matter what he does those thoughts will never leave his mind.
    I certainly don't fault the LEO... he was falling back on his training... But, I can't go as far as to worry about what BG might do next time/next place. LEO was trying to reduce the collateral damage potential, he just didn't follow through enough... But he did try. If there had been enough time, he might have been able to reduce the players to 3: MGR, BG, LEO... There probably wasn't enough time for that anyway. Nothing "wrong" with what LEO did... but he's gonna live with that forever.

    I, as a CCW holder, have no obligation to play LEO. I have an obligation to my family to get them out. If I feel the need to be a hero, I have the obligation to clear all the bystanders as well... (or I might be a litigant in a civil suit and ruin the family I was trying to protect.) Most likely there isn't enough time to do all that... I could wait until the BG is out of the store, but then I'm putting myself and others back into a risky situation.

    Quote Originally Posted by chivvalry View Post
    Ummm... soooo.... devil's advocate here... If that LEO had done nothing and stood by while the BG came running out waving a gun and decided to shoot someone that was standing between him and the door because they didnt move fast enough how many of you would be saying he had been negligent in not engaging the BG and attempting to stop him? You can't predict what could have happened had this gone different. Armchair quarterbacks and people with 20/20 hindsight WEREN'T THERE.

    In my opinion the LEO did what he is paid and trained to do. He attempted to stop a BG with a gun in the commission of a felony. The loss of that poor little girl's life is horrible and heart wrenching... but the blame for it goes squarely on the BG.
    I don't think the LEO did anything wrong either... He could have done more/better, but there probably wasn't time anyway. He's the one who is living with the collateral damage, and it seems obvious that he regrets his actions to a degree because of it.

    We are not LEOs. Our responsibility is to protect ourselvelves, our families.
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    This is a very good post, it's full of nuances that we should all soak in.

    Very often, reading posts of 'what-if' situations around here, I'm a bit concerned by the aggressiveness that many posters put into their thoughts. We'd all like to be hero's, but there's a lot at stake when the hammers start to drop. This story should be a sobering reminder to all of us: unless you or someone within your close proximity is being shot at, if the guy running with the gun is not pullilng the trigger you may be wise to think before you pull yours. I think that simple truth is not often given appropriate consideration.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  5. #20
    Distinguished Member Array bigmacque's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by chivvalry View Post
    Ummm... soooo.... devil's advocate here... If that LEO had done nothing and stood by while the BG came running out waving a gun and decided to shoot someone that was standing between him and the door because they didnt move fast enough how many of you would be saying he had been negligent in not engaging the BG and attempting to stop him? You can't predict what could have happened had this gone different. Armchair quarterbacks and people with 20/20 hindsight WEREN'T THERE.

    In my opinion the LEO did what he is paid and trained to do. He attempted to stop a BG with a gun in the commission of a felony. The loss of that poor little girl's life is horrible and heart wrenching... but the blame for it goes squarely on the BG.
    I think the cop reacted the way he reacted -- who know's how any of us may have reacted in the situation?

    All he's trying to explain is the situation he found himself in, his actions, and the resulting emotions driven by the consequences of those actions. A lot of 'what-if' situations are put forth around here; this is a real situation that actually happened, and we can all learn from it.
    I'm in favor of gun control -- I think every citizen should have control of a gun.
    1 Thess. 5:16-18

  6. #21
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    I certainly don't fault the LEO... he was falling back on his training... But, I can't go as far as to worry about what BG might do next time/next place. LEO was trying to reduce the collateral damage potential, he just didn't follow through enough... But he did try. If there had been enough time, he might have been able to reduce the players to 3: MGR, BG, LEO... There probably wasn't enough time for that anyway. Nothing "wrong" with what LEO did... but he's gonna live with that forever.

    I, as a CCW holder, have no obligation to play LEO. I have an obligation to my family to get them out. If I feel the need to be a hero, I have the obligation to clear all the bystanders as well... (or I might be a litigant in a civil suit and ruin the family I was trying to protect.) Most likely there isn't enough time to do all that... I could wait until the BG is out of the store, but then I'm putting myself and others back into a risky situation.



    I don't think the LEO did anything wrong either... He could have done more/better, but there probably wasn't time anyway. He's the one who is living with the collateral damage, and it seems obvious that he regrets his actions to a degree because of it.

    We are not LEOs. Our responsibility is to protect ourselvelves, our families.
    I think we are in agreement then... as a LEO this person, even off duty, has a responsibility to "protect and serve" the community as a whole and that means going TOWARD threats to neutralize them. On the other hand, I do NOT. My responsibility is to my family and myself... I would NOT have drawn on this BG in this situation as described. I would have huddled in the corner with my family behind me hoping he just keeps on going. If he decided to randomly start shooting people then I would have engaged him... 'cause MY family and I could be next.

    I don't think I'd be thinking I'm some "predatory cat" though... more like a scared father and husband with kids to protect.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  7. #22
    Member Array chivvalry's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    This is a very good post, it's full of nuances that we should all soak in.

    Very often, reading posts of 'what-if' situations around here, I'm a bit concerned by the aggressiveness that many posters put into their thoughts. We'd all like to be hero's, but there's a lot at stake when the hammers start to drop. This story should be a sobering reminder to all of us: unless you or someone within your close proximity is being shot at, if the guy running with the gun is not pullilng the trigger you may be wise to think before you pull yours. I think that simple truth is not often given appropriate consideration.
    Well said. I would add "being attacked" vs. just being shot at though.
    "I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."
    You are not paranoid if They are actually out to get you, however, They probably are not and you probably are.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigmacque View Post
    This is a very good post, it's full of nuances that we should all soak in.

    Very often, reading posts of 'what-if' situations around here, I'm a bit concerned by the aggressiveness that many posters put into their thoughts. We'd all like to be hero's, but there's a lot at stake when the hammers start to drop. This story should be a sobering reminder to all of us: unless you or someone within your close proximity is being shot at, if the guy running with the gun is not pullilng the trigger you may be wise to think before you pull yours. I think that simple truth is not often given appropriate consideration.
    big +1

  9. #24
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    Corrected post found the article i was looking for.

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    Thank you for posting this.

    I have heard tale of this story for over a decade now from largely LEO instructors, but not once have I hear anyone cite the actual news account of this incident.
    I am going to forward this link to several persons of same so that they can add this to their curriculum as a source citation.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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  11. #26
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    For those of you that say he should've done what he did, as he is a LEO, I will counter with this:

    Off duty is off duty. Getting people to safety, summoning the on duty constabulary, and being a good witness is doing something. Policies and such that say one has a "duty to act" when they are off duty do not state how one has to act. It's like policies that say when you can and can't shoot. Just because you can, doesn't mean you have to. Nobody can tell you that you must shoot.

    Personally I have the memo that says, "Any actions taken off duty will not be considered within the scope of employment." Thus when I am off duty I will get involved only to the level of my choosing. I will act, but most likely, unless you are a threat to me and mine, I will not be engaging in a gunfight unless you are threatening me and mine.

    Biker

  12. #27
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    This comparing us to the worn-out sheepdog, sheppard, wolf story is getting old.

    What it comes to is:
    1. Are you willing to risk your life for someone else, regardless of if they are "family."
    2. Are you willing to accept the consequences of doing so.

    We all need to think long and hard before it happens.
    Retired USAF E-8. Lighten up and enjoy life because:
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... Buffalo Springfield - For What It's Worth

  13. #28
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    An example of how fine the line can be between success and disaster, hero and villan.

    Jang,
    Your welcome.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  14. #29
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    I do like considering what I would do in real-world possible events. The last thing I want to say is “I never thought that would happen to me”. So for this situation.

    1) Crowded restaurant
    2) Armed threat in the back
    3) I don’t know the layout or where in the back
    4) I don’t visual see the threat

    That’s an easy one. I’m packing up my friends and family and leaving immediately. I’m not a cop, McDonald's isn’t paying me to risk my life and I don’t think they would appreciate it if I did.
    What I did get out of this is:
    I fired all 11 rounds from my Glock 26 in about 2 seconds
    Have a spare magazine.

  15. #30
    Distinguished Member Array 21bubba's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    That's why you think and assess before acting.

    Because generally speaking...

    It Is NOT Your Problem.
    I believe he did think and assess before he acted.

    Think of what he supposedly knew and saw.
    1. ongoing robbery
    2. man running at him with a large weapon.

    That combination in my mind tells me that going for your weapon is the smart move.What was he supposed to do get shot? I am terribly sorry the girl got killed,but the officer has no blame in that.

    If there was one mistake the officer made it was announcing himself.

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