Sad/Something To Consider

Sad/Something To Consider

This is a discussion on Sad/Something To Consider within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Here's a link for all that carry off duty or on a CCW Permit. http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=288846 Those of you that think you will rush in and ...

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Thread: Sad/Something To Consider

  1. #1
    Ex Member Array BikerRN's Avatar
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    Sad/Something To Consider

    Here's a link for all that carry off duty or on a CCW Permit.

    http://forums.1911forum.com/showthread.php?t=288846

    Those of you that think you will rush in and "save the day", might wish to reconsider.

    Biker


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    I had read this before can't remember how old it is but you are right. You better have a plan and the skills to back up that plan before you jump in with both feet, because once you do there is no calling a time out.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

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    even if i was justified and cleared, i dont know how i could live with that little girls death on my hands, that is truly something to think about
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

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    Thanks for the post...makes the hair stand up on the back of the neck.
    Certainly something to read and consider.
    The last Blood Moon Tetrad for this millennium starts in April 2014 and ends in September 2015...according to NASA.

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    Distinguished Member Array kelcarry's Avatar
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    Imminent danger of death or great bodily injury from a robbery? Off-duty and, outside of having a firearm and supposedly a lot of training, the LEO is with his family in a crowded McDonalds. Sad story but should not have happened. It was just about money and really nothing more before the LEO made a bad decision.

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    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Sometimes...

    It's NOT your problem.

    In fact...Most times, it isn't your problem.

    Everyone wants to be a hero...nobody wants to realize the unpleasant reality that life doesn't have a script.

  7. #7
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    Another thing to consider...

    "I immediately noted the large semi-automatic pistol in his hand. The distance was about 15 to 20 yards. I drew my weapon, announced myself and took a kneeling position behind the counter. Unfortunately, the suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted. The suspect fired a total of 2 rounds in my direction. I fired 11, striking him 10 times."

    If you decide to make something your problem, you better be aware that when you are 'off duty' or for those of us who are never on duty...

    If you treat a situation like a "sheep dog" you will arouse a response you may not be able to handle.

    I am not a sheep dog.

    I do not announce myself.
    I do not fight fair.
    I do not want to fight, take someone into custody or enforce laws.

    My 'animal model' for this kind of situation is that of a solitary, predatory, ambush hunting cat.

    I will watch.
    I will assess.
    I will, if possible, chose the time & method of my attack...

    I will not warn.
    I will not announce.
    I will not try to effect an arrest.

    I will not hesitate to shoot someone in the back, then duck behind concealment or cover as the bad guy bleeds out wondering who shot them.

    I will do this because a seldom expounded upon point about sheep dogs is that to the farmer...they are expendable. If a wolf gets into it with a sheep dog and the dog dies...get another dog.

    Sheep = Money.

    Dogs...they are nice to have, but they are present to protect the sheep and if you use one - its sad, but they are their to die for the sheep.

    Sorry, Homie Don't Play That.

    So. For all of you thinking about what you'd do and how you'd do it...

    Stop modeling on a sheep dog, and start looking from a different point of view.

  8. #8
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    Good post and reminder of the aftermath.
    Turn the election's in 2014 to a "2A Revolution". It will serve as a 1994 refresher not to "infringe" on our Second Amendment. We know who they are now.........SEND 'EM HOME. Our success in this will be proportional to how hard we work to make it happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    I am not a sheep dog.

    I do not announce myself.
    I do not fight fair.
    I do not want to fight, take someone into custody or enforce laws.
    Someone once said "If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck."

    I completely agree - if you're going to be involved in a deadly force encounter, fight unfairly. Cheat. Play dirty.

    This is a sad tale, indeed, and it reinforces an important lesson - when you call down the storm, you are responsible for the thunder and the lightning and the rain.

    Matt
    Battle Plan (n) - a list of things that aren't going to happen if you are attacked.
    Blame it on Sixto - now that is a viable plan.

  10. #10
    mrm
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Another thing to consider...

    "I immediately noted the large semi-automatic pistol in his hand. The distance was about 15 to 20 yards. I drew my weapon, announced myself and took a kneeling position behind the counter. Unfortunately, the suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted. The suspect fired a total of 2 rounds in my direction. I fired 11, striking him 10 times."

    If you decide to make something your problem, you better be aware that when you are 'off duty' or for those of us who are never on duty...

    If you treat a situation like a "sheep dog" you will arouse a response you may not be able to handle.

    I am not a sheep dog.

    I do not announce myself.
    I do not fight fair.
    I do not want to fight, take someone into custody or enforce laws.

    My 'animal model' for this kind of situation is that of a solitary, predatory, ambush hunting cat.

    I will watch.
    I will assess.
    I will, if possible, chose the time & method of my attack...

    I will not warn.
    I will not announce.
    I will not try to effect an arrest.

    I will not hesitate to shoot someone in the back, then duck behind concealment or cover as the bad guy bleeds out wondering who shot them.

    I will do this because a seldom expounded upon point about sheep dogs is that to the farmer...they are expendable. If a wolf gets into it with a sheep dog and the dog dies...get another dog.

    Sheep = Money.

    Dogs...they are nice to have, but they are present to protect the sheep and if you use one - its sad, but they are their to die for the sheep.

    Sorry, Homie Don't Play That.

    So. For all of you thinking about what you'd do and how you'd do it...

    Stop modeling on a sheep dog, and start looking from a different point of view.
    This pretty much sums up exactly what I was going to say ^^^^^^^
    "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use."
    - Galileo Galilei (1564-1642)

  11. #11
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Another thing to consider...

    "I immediately noted the large semi-automatic pistol in his hand. The distance was about 15 to 20 yards. I drew my weapon, announced myself and took a kneeling position behind the counter. Unfortunately, the suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted. The suspect fired a total of 2 rounds in my direction. I fired 11, striking him 10 times."

    If you decide to make something your problem, you better be aware that when you are 'off duty' or for those of us who are never on duty...

    If you treat a situation like a "sheep dog" you will arouse a response you may not be able to handle.

    I am not a sheep dog.

    I do not announce myself.
    I do not fight fair.
    I do not want to fight, take someone into custody or enforce laws.

    My 'animal model' for this kind of situation is that of a solitary, predatory, ambush hunting cat.

    I will watch.
    I will assess.
    I will, if possible, chose the time & method of my attack...

    I will not warn.
    I will not announce.
    I will not try to effect an arrest.

    I will not hesitate to shoot someone in the back, then duck behind concealment or cover as the bad guy bleeds out wondering who shot them.

    I will do this because a seldom expounded upon point about sheep dogs is that to the farmer...they are expendable. If a wolf gets into it with a sheep dog and the dog dies...get another dog.

    Sheep = Money.

    Dogs...they are nice to have, but they are present to protect the sheep and if you use one - its sad, but they are their to die for the sheep.

    Sorry, Homie Don't Play That.

    So. For all of you thinking about what you'd do and how you'd do it...

    Stop modeling on a sheep dog, and start looking from a different point of view.


    Great, great post!

  12. #12
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Combine MitchellCT's view of this and the "FBI" PPS regarding "knock down" power posted elsewhere... and you have much of the TRUTH regarding our CC weapons, our ability to stop an attack against ourselves and/or others, and survive an incident involving a BG(or more than one BG).

    Facts is facts. Sure, I've said "if I have the perfect shot, I'd take it." And if I've just said "I'd shoot," I was thinking that (if the shot were perfect).

    Our weapons are, for the most part, for SELF defense... and for the defense of our loved ones. They are the LAST line of defense in those situations as well.

    If the presented story is true, and I have no reason to doubt that it's quite possible/likely, even if it's not an actual accounting of one particular scenario; then we have to assume it could happen to us in any given bad situation.

    It is certainly understandable that the police officer involved went with his training, and aggressively went after the BG, "meat eater" style. His action was professional, decisive, and effectual. But, unfortunately, the BG wasn't playing by any "rules of engagement" and was strictly trying to save himself. His 2 shots were not "on target," but just as deadly.

    Mas Ayoob talks about dangerous encounters in the book In the Gravest Extreme. His solution to many of those encouters is to throw money at them... give the BG, or potential BG, some cash... 10 bucks to buy a round for him and his buddies... defusing a potential situation.

    What I'm trying to emphasise here, is that our weapon is there to protect our lives, not our stuff.

    Put a regular CCW Joe (or Jane) in the same scenario as the OP. Your PRIMARY job, IMO, is to get your family safe and away. If you stick around to "help," your SECONDARY job is to get the innocents safe and away. If there's still time, and you are foolish enough to engage, and your primary and secondary jobs are DONE... Then and only then, should you take an offensive position, and do what (you feel) needs to be done. In most situations there won't be time to get all the jobs done before you can play "sheepdog".

    In the event of a suspected late night home entry (that ubiquitous bump in the night)... do you "clear" the house? How many times has that actually turned out to be a home invasion? For most of us, the answer is none. For those of us who have actually been involved in a home invasion (benign or otherwise), you KNEW it was the real deal. Having been through it myself, my choice would now be... circle the wagons (gather the family behind the weapons), stay put, call, protect and defend.

    So many of us here go out of our way to avoid potentially dangerous situations... "Stop and Robs," ATMs, "Bad parts of town," Bars, etc. etc. and yet, we're gonna shoot the BG from 50 yards away, in a crowd of bystanders. I'm not, I can't guarantee the shot, I can't guarantee a one stop head shot, I am putting others at risk. I'm going to try to get my loved ones (or other innocents) away if they're around. I'm going to get them to call 911 if I have to play hero. I may cover the retreating innocents from as much concealment as I can find.

    Rant/ramble off...
    Rats!
    It could be worse!
    I suppose

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by MitchellCT View Post
    Another thing to consider...

    "I immediately noted the large semi-automatic pistol in his hand. The distance was about 15 to 20 yards. I drew my weapon, announced myself and took a kneeling position behind the counter. Unfortunately, the suspect raised his weapon at me and the gunfight erupted. The suspect fired a total of 2 rounds in my direction. I fired 11, striking him 10 times."

    If you decide to make something your problem, you better be aware that when you are 'off duty' or for those of us who are never on duty...

    If you treat a situation like a "sheep dog" you will arouse a response you may not be able to handle.

    I am not a sheep dog.

    I do not announce myself.
    I do not fight fair.
    I do not want to fight, take someone into custody or enforce laws.

    My 'animal model' for this kind of situation is that of a solitary, predatory, ambush hunting cat.

    I will watch.
    I will assess.
    I will, if possible, chose the time & method of my attack...

    I will not warn.
    I will not announce.
    I will not try to effect an arrest.

    I will not hesitate to shoot someone in the back, then duck behind concealment or cover as the bad guy bleeds out wondering who shot them.

    I will do this because a seldom expounded upon point about sheep dogs is that to the farmer...they are expendable. If a wolf gets into it with a sheep dog and the dog dies...get another dog.

    Sheep = Money.

    Dogs...they are nice to have, but they are present to protect the sheep and if you use one - its sad, but they are their to die for the sheep.

    Sorry, Homie Don't Play That.

    So. For all of you thinking about what you'd do and how you'd do it...

    Stop modeling on a sheep dog, and start looking from a different point of view.
    While I completely agree with the bottom line of your post, I think that it's important to note that the gun running up towards the front with a gun could easily have been the manager coming up front after the actual robber fled out the back. Sure if the guy has a a ski mask over his face and a fist full of cash in his off hand, you can make certain assumptions, but it isn't always that clear cut (if it's ever that clear cut)...

    I think about this sort of stuff often and I'm thankful for all the various scenario posts that get put up here; it gives me even more food for thought.

  14. #14
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  15. #15
    VIP Member Array MitchellCT's Avatar
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    That's why you think and assess before acting.

    Because generally speaking...

    It Is NOT Your Problem.

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