ending ongoing harassment by showing a weapon. (long)

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Thread: ending ongoing harassment by showing a weapon. (long)

  1. #1
    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    ending ongoing harassment by showing a weapon. (long)

    True story.

    Over the course of several months, attempts were made to follow me home from my employ by various vehicles belonging to several previous employees.

    At one time, while I was at work, this group attempted to blow up a vehicle of mine parked on the street. *A cigarette was lit, taped across a firecracker, which was taped to a pint bottle of accelerant (which previously contained Paramount Peach brandy), the device was placed under the engine compartment of the vehicle.* It hadn't been driven for some time, so there were no fumes to cause the hoped for explosion (except for the explosion of the accelerant).

    Several other employees were followed home... houses were tagged, cars were destroyed by bricks thru windows, etc.

    One day, I drove into a gas station/convenience store to fill up and to get oil for the car I was driving. As I was filling up, another car pulled into the lot and parked next to the building. The driver stayed in the car.

    When I went in to pay my bill (no pay at the pump in the 1980's) and get the oil... the driver of the other car followed me in. As I went down the aisles looking for the oil, he picked up some items and fell in behind me.

    I got the oil, and went to the register. The driver was standing behind me. As I paid my bill, wallet out, the driver behind me said to the clerk behind the register... "I know you, we used to work together at _________, now THIS guy works there (I assume he was indicating me)."

    The clerk had already handed me the change in bills and I was putting that in my wallet. He then took the coins, and angrily slammed them on the counter... saying "IZZAT So... son of a female dog shouldn't be taking people's jobs... that ain't right!"

    I took the wallet, leaving the change on the counter, and swept my jacket aside, while turning to the right, exposing my weapon to the man behind me, and put the wallet away. My hand then went immediately to the handgun, resting there, and I walked out of the store.

    The driver apparently stayed to chat with his ol' buddy, as he never left the store while I was on the drive, putting the oil in my car, and then driving away.

    I was never again followed. I was never again harassed.

    I was pretty aware of the situation from the moment the driver pulled in and sat in his car, he didn't move until I started going into the store. I was even more aware when he followed me in... I was unprepared for the clerk to be a comrade of the driver's... But nothing more was said or done while I was in the store than what I posted.

    Comments? Critiques? I couldn't drive off w/o paying... I couldn't get on a cel phone...

    *Based on evidence at the scene as relayed by the police to my SO*
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
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  3. #2
    VIP Member Array Janq's Avatar
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    Can't call it...Not gonna try.

    It reads to be as from a completely different and long ago decade & time.
    That in and of itself affects matters of viability perception greatly.
    What is wrong/unlawful today has very well been right and even lawful just a generation ago.

    At the end of the day it sounds like what was done did work, so with that minus the arm chair & beer...It seems to have been okay for that time and place.
    They say when in Rome do as the Romans do...Unless you are Greek.

    - Janq
    "Killers who are not deterred by laws against murder are not going to be deterred by laws against guns. " - Robert A. Levy

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    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    Only two comments.

    If somewhere where the "accidental" exposure of a weapon is not a problem, no problem.

    It is difficult to argue with success.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

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    Senior Member Array DUNDEM's Avatar
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    Whatever works..lol.

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    Inadvertant versus intentional exposure can be the legal difference. The results don't care.
    Retired USAF E-8. Remember: You're being watched!
    Paranoia strikes deep, into your heart it will creep. It starts when you're always afraid... "For What It's Worth" Buffalo Springfield

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    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by oakchas View Post
    True story.

    Over the course of several months, attempts were made to follow me home from my employ by various vehicles belonging to several previous employees.

    At one time, while I was at work, this group attempted to blow up a vehicle of mine parked on the street. *A cigarette was lit, taped across a firecracker, which was taped to a pint bottle of accelerant (which previously contained Paramount Peach brandy), the device was placed under the engine compartment of the vehicle.* It hadn't been driven for some time, so there were no fumes to cause the hoped for explosion (except for the explosion of the accelerant).

    Several other employees were followed home... houses were tagged, cars were destroyed by bricks thru windows, etc.

    One day, I drove into a gas station/convenience store to fill up and to get oil for the car I was driving. As I was filling up, another car pulled into the lot and parked next to the building. The driver stayed in the car.

    When I went in to pay my bill (no pay at the pump in the 1980's) and get the oil... the driver of the other car followed me in. As I went down the aisles looking for the oil, he picked up some items and fell in behind me.

    I got the oil, and went to the register. The driver was standing behind me. As I paid my bill, wallet out, the driver behind me said to the clerk behind the register... "I know you, we used to work together at _________, now THIS guy works there (I assume he was indicating me)."

    The clerk had already handed me the change in bills and I was putting that in my wallet. He then took the coins, and angrily slammed them on the counter... saying "IZZAT So... son of a female dog shouldn't be taking people's jobs... that ain't right!"

    I took the wallet, leaving the change on the counter, and swept my jacket aside, while turning to the right, exposing my weapon to the man behind me, and put the wallet away. My hand then went immediately to the handgun, resting there, and I walked out of the store.

    The driver apparently stayed to chat with his ol' buddy, as he never left the store while I was on the drive, putting the oil in my car, and then driving away.

    I was never again followed. I was never again harassed.

    I was pretty aware of the situation from the moment the driver pulled in and sat in his car, he didn't move until I started going into the store. I was even more aware when he followed me in... I was unprepared for the clerk to be a comrade of the driver's... But nothing more was said or done while I was in the store than what I posted.

    Comments? Critiques? I couldn't drive off w/o paying... I couldn't get on a cel phone...

    *Based on evidence at the scene as relayed by the police to my SO*
    WOW. Did the accelerant actually get ignited? Or did the firecracker fail to break the bottle? I would assume that the firecracker did not generate enough force to break the bottle. Still way to scary.
    As far as sweeping back the jacket to put you wallet away, if your in an open carry state no harm no foul. (Just be a little more carefull next time.)

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    Here in Oklahoma city that will get you in trouble, it'll be easy for anyone to prove you've threaten someone, ( that around this places is considered a threat) 'cause they already know you are carrying, you are gonna have 3 or 4 patrols and a lot of questioning to say the least.

    Only show if you use it. Other wise don't even touch it, as that would be considered a threat, police will shoot you for that.
    Go with the glow

  9. #8
    VIP Member Array paramedic70002's Avatar
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    Dude what line of work were you in? That's just crazy!
    "Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18

    Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
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    Glad that it all worked out OK for you but, I don't really think that your brandishing action would have been considered to be justified in that exact scenario.
    Unless you knew for a fact that either one or the other of those two individuals had actually threatened you on some previous occasion.

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    Member Array Ksthumper's Avatar
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    After several months of harassment I would have done the same thing and added a statement that 'I know how to use it'


    .... but then I am at the age were I could say my actions are a 'brain bloat' Senior moment.

  12. #11
    VIP Member Array dukalmighty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ksthumper View Post
    After several months of harassment I would have done the same thing and added a statement that 'I know how to use it'


    .... but then I am at the age were I could say my actions are a 'brain bloat' Senior moment.
    Regardless of whether or not you felt you were being followed,exposing your gun gripping it and having your senior moment would get you arrested forbrandishing and possibly terroristic threat.The Senior moment would make the Courts feel you weren't stable enough to have a gun.Since it happened in the 80's many things have changed in electronic surveillance and videoing incidents,in this type of case today you should not only have outside surveillance cameras but also video individuals and car tags that follow you.Unless it's a very small town,and the person has a reason why you would run into them on a pretty regular basis this could help document the stalking threat
    "Outside of the killings, Washington has one of the lowest crime rates in the country,"
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    Member Array 120mm's Avatar
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    God, aren't Unions great!

    We used to be a Union town until they priced industry out of town completely. Stuff like this happened with regularity to those who didn't toe the line.

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    VIP Member Array farronwolf's Avatar
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    Lets see, you had two people that had lost their jobs at a place where you were currently working talk about where you work. One of them calling you a name and saying that ain't right.

    Regardless of what had happened to a vehicle, (I can only assume that neither of the two were charged with the attempted blowing up of the vehicle) they had every right to be there at the store, the clerk probably had the right to slam the change on the counter. He wasn't after all refusing to give you your money.

    All in all, nope, if your not in a open carry state then you don't have any right to go around flashing your gun. And if you are in an open carry state and your using your gun to cause distress or apprehension to another then your probably wrong as well.

    Is this a relatively small town? Was the fact that you frequently came into contact with terminated employees a result of the size or layout of the community itself? Were any charges ever brought against anyone for this harassment or damage to property? If not why?
    Just remember that shot placement is much more important with what you carry than how big a bang you get with each trigger pull.
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    VIP Member Array oakchas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TedBeau View Post
    WOW. Did the accelerant actually get ignited? Or did the firecracker fail to break the bottle? I would assume that the firecracker did not generate enough force to break the bottle. Still way to scary.
    As far as sweeping back the jacket to put you wallet away, if your in an open carry state no harm no foul. (Just be a little more carefull next time.)
    Yes, the firecracker broke the bottle, the cigarette "extended time fuse" was a guess by the cops. But enough of the label was stuck to the tape to determine the vessel, and enough of the "black cat" label was still on the tape as well... The fire which engulfed the vehicle for a short period of time melted one brake line a little, that was the extent of the damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by dukalmighty View Post
    Regardless of whether or not you felt you were being followed,exposing your gun gripping it and having your senior moment would get you arrested forbrandishing and possibly terroristic threat.The Senior moment would make the Courts feel you weren't stable enough to have a gun.Since it happened in the 80's many things have changed in electronic surveillance and videoing incidents,in this type of case today you should not only have outside surveillance cameras but also video individuals and car tags that follow you.Unless it's a very small town,and the person has a reason why you would run into them on a pretty regular basis this could help document the stalking threat
    Well, I didn't "feel" I was being followed or harassed; I was being followed and harassed.

    All the temporary workers were...

    One pair, riding together at the end of a shift, had a flat tire on the interstate. 4 displaced workers stopped to "help." A fight ensued. The pair of employees prevailed, due to extensive MA training (they were both brown belts at the time).

    One other lone driver was boxed in on another main hiway between a pickup truck (leading) and an old caddy following. The pickup truck had displaced workers in the box, and enough clinker brick, stone, and large nuts and bolts, to rain a barrage on the lone driver's car. Eventually, the lone driver in his little econobox was able to evade and led the truck and the caddy to the cop shop in a suburb. The chase vehicles disappeared. When he awoke in the morning, all windows were broken out of his car, all tires were flat, and the car, and the house in front of which it was parked was tagged with graffiti.

    A friend (and previous employer)of mine was attending a "sportsman's dinner" one evening... and he overheard a few guys mention my name (first and last) and the statement "We're bringing in guys from Gary to take care of him and ______"...

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Lets see, you had two people that had lost their jobs at a place where you were currently working talk about where you work. One of them calling you a name and saying that ain't right.
    True... no real harm. But very threatening attitude/speech on the part of both.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Regardless of what had happened to a vehicle, (I can only assume that neither of the two were charged with the attempted blowing up of the vehicle) they had every right to be there at the store, the clerk probably had the right to slam the change on the counter. He wasn't after all refusing to give you your money.
    True. I didn't recount his threats, veiled and otherwise.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    All in all, nope, if your not in a open carry state then you don't have any right to go around flashing your gun. And if you are in an open carry state and your using your gun to cause distress or apprehension to another then your probably wrong as well.
    It is a mixed state... concelament is not required by law.. but certain sheriffs want concealment, and they are the issuing (and more importantly denying/revoking) authority (until 2011). I exposed my weapon, I did not brandish (wave or flourish in a threatening manner). When I made certain it was secured by putting my hand on it... it was through the jacket, which I had allowed to slip back into place covering it.

    I never turned around to confront the driver who had followed me, nor the cashier... I was leaving the building to attend to my vehicle. I didn't back out with my hand on my hip.

    Quote Originally Posted by farronwolf View Post
    Is this a relatively small town? Was the fact that you frequently came into contact with terminated employees a result of the size or layout of the community itself? Were any charges ever brought against anyone for this harassment or damage to property? If not why?
    About 100,000 pop. my contact was not a result of the layout of the community... However, a large group of them was outside the plant everyday. They had friends in LE, who would "run plates" for them, they knew where all the employed lived, and where they worked. Sympathetic boycots were/are illegal... I was in a trade crossing a picket line of another non-trade union.

    Charges and restraining orders were levied on the workers and their union, to limit the nmber of picketers, and warnings to stop the harassment.

    This was 30 years ago... times, laws, technology, and I have all changed.
    All that said....
    It could be worse.
    __________________________________________________
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  16. #15
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
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    Wow. Quite a story, would probably have turned into a much bigger issue now
    I kind of remind me of the harassment a friend of mine that works at an abortion clinic receives on sadly too frequent occasions.

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