Football team storms bleachers, beats fans, deadly force? Video!

Football team storms bleachers, beats fans, deadly force? Video!

This is a discussion on Football team storms bleachers, beats fans, deadly force? Video! within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Would this be a deadly force situation? A football team of attackers punching, kicking, hitting you with milk crates, and throwing you down the bleachers? ...

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Thread: Football team storms bleachers, beats fans, deadly force? Video!

  1. #1
    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Football team storms bleachers, beats fans, deadly force? Video!

    Would this be a deadly force situation? A football team of attackers punching, kicking, hitting you with milk crates, and throwing you down the bleachers?

    I am astounded that "police have dropped their investigation into the fight because no one is willing to press charges"... Canada I guess.

    I see felony assault???


    http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2a4_1287639868

    October 20, 2010

    Wait, is this supposed to happen in Canada? Here we are at the Ontario Football Conference amateur league football game between the St. Leonard Cougars and host Hamilton Hurricanes.

    The game is almost over when St. Leonard players rush the stands and engage in a wild brawl with spectators, the battle including one fan being flattened with a plastic milk crate, and another being knocked out cold with a punch.

    Despite ambulances and police being called to the scene at Ivor Wynne Stadium, Hamilton police have dropped their investigation into the fight because no one is willing to press charges.

    From The Hamilton Spectator:

    Up to 20 St. Leonard players jumped into the stands after being heckled by Hurricanes fans. Fists, crates and helmets began flying.

    For the championship game on Sunday at 4 p.m. at Ivor Wynne, Hurricanes officials have decided that fans will all sit in the south side stands on the opposite side from the players' benches.

    Cougars head coach Jeff Rached said he requested added security in the second quarter. Hurricane officials went into the crowd and tried to calm some of the hecklers.

    OFC players range in age from 18 to 22 and are sometimes recruited by the CFL.
    "a reminder that no law can replace personal responsibility" - Bill Clinton 2010.


  2. #2
    VIP Member Array ExactlyMyPoint's Avatar
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    Let me see:

    Disparity of force
    Assault with a weapon (milk crate)
    In fear of my life

    Ya, if this weren't Canada
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    Member Array Beachbumcook's Avatar
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    No... deadly force could NOT be used (if this happened here in the US).

    A LEO would not even have pulled his firearm... he may have used a tazer, his OC spray or baton, but not his firearm in the situation described above.

    1) To many innocent people around.

    2) Milk crates and fists "flying around " do rise to the level of "deadly force needed".

    3) Obviously, if no one is pressing charges (at all)... then the innocent was not as bad as the article makes it sound????
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    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Just the title reminded me of the HS I went to lol

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    VIP Member Array 9MMare's Avatar
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    I described something very similar in the open carry section.

    Are you really about to be killed? Can you escape?

    But aside from that, the logistics of shooting:

    --will you be able to take a shot without being hit or bumped by someone else?
    --the same can be said for your target & you'll miss
    --even a hollow point is going thru at close range
    --you arent likely to have a safe backstop under any circumstances
    --better chances of someone else disarming you
    --in a true panic or crush situation, will shooting some people actually stop you from being swept up or crushed?
    Fortune favors the bold.

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    The thing about "defense" is that it has practically nothing to do with guns. (As passed on by CCW9MM)

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    Guns here would be out of the questions because one wouldn't want to be in jail instead of spending all that money the school district(s) are going to be paying out.
    They sure won't have a hard time deciding who the attacking dirtbags were...and these little thugs should see some jail time, not to mention never playing a sport in high school ever again.
    Where were the coaches?
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    Member Array gunsite's Avatar
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    whenever there's an avenue of escape... escape. I didn't see the in the video the very beginning of the fight, but once the football players start approaching the stands... you retreat. If you stand your ground exchanging words with aggression and you're carrying a weapon, a court room can make it seem you're a gunslinger. If you've ever been in court hearing involving a shootings/homicide you'll understand the importance of INTENT. If you stand your ground with verbal aggression or body language and you're carrying a weapon, the court will try to show your aggression escalated the situation because your armed. Remember... Immediate Fear Of Life and/or NO avenue of escape, if you go to court with anything less, your rolling the dice. In court everything gets turned around, the truth will not set you free... only what you can prove is what really matters. Good Luck

  8. #8
    VIP Member Array TedBeau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by retsupt99 View Post
    Guns here would be out of the questions because one wouldn't want to be in jail instead of spending all that money the school district(s) are going to be paying out.
    They sure won't have a hard time deciding who the attacking dirtbags were...and these little thugs should see some jail time, not to mention never playing a sport in high school ever again.
    Where were the coaches?
    This was not a high school game, The players are semi-pro 18-23 years old, basically a farm league for the Canadian pro league. Looking at the video you can see how big the players are, even though some of the fans appear to be quite large, the players are even bigger.
    I agree the players that went into the stands to fight, not to calm down there team mates, should all be banned from playing.

    While reading the text of the post, I thought that this might be a case where deadly force might be needed, but in watching the video none of the fans appeared to make any attempt to retreat and the players did not "Rush" the bleachers. The fans should have had time to retreat but chose not to.

  9. #9
    Member Array SecPro's Avatar
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    If I recall in FL we cannot carry at sporting events anyway so deadly force with a firearm would be out. I would possibly say lethal hand to hand techniques could of been used if the situation was warranted. 3 or more players on 1 defenseless individual, protecting wife and child etc.

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    VIP Member Array packinnova's Avatar
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    As others have already mentioned shooting as a bad idea, it does present some questions. How exactly does one rapidly escape up a set of bleachers in the midst of a rowdy crowd and/or stairs without turning your back to your attacker?
    "My God David, We're a Civilized society."

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    Distinguished Member Array nutz4utwo's Avatar
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    Interesting and appreciated opinions above. I too agree that one could likely get away from this fight without resorting to a firearm. That would obviously be the best option. I do however think that deadly force may have been justified had it happened in my State.

    Are you really about to be killed? Can you escape?
    The fans should have had time to retreat but chose not to.
    Laws vary from state to state (and who knows about Canada?). In many there is no duty to escape or retreat. It might be a good idea, but you are not legally required to.

    Washington (where I live) allows deadly force to prevent an imminent felony against your person.
    here is the WA statute:

    RCW 9A.16.050
    Homicide — By other person — When justifiable.

    Homicide is also justifiable when committed either:

    (1) In the lawful defense of the slayer, or his or her husband, wife, parent, child, brother, or sister, or of any other person in his presence or company, when there is reasonable ground to apprehend a design on the part of the person slain to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury to the slayer or to any such person, and there is imminent danger of such design being accomplished; or

    (2) In the actual resistance of an attempt to commit a felony upon the slayer, in his presence, or upon or in a dwelling, or other place of abode, in which he is.
    The cleats to the face are the most worrisome thing I saw. Is getting kicked in the head with cleats on a 260 pound football platey capable of "some great personal injury"? Me thinks yes!

    3) Obviously, if no one is pressing charges (at all)... then the innocent was not as bad as the article makes it sound????
    Wasn't there, but the video looks pretty bad. I wonder if anyone went to the emergency room...

    They sure won't have a hard time deciding who the attacking dirtbags were
    I know! If I was wearing a bright orange jersey with MY number on it in 18 inch tall letters while being videotaped, I would certainly not violently assault someone. Then again, I wouldn't assault someone anyway. :p

    The ideas about drawing and accurately stopping a BG during a brawl are all spot on. Accidentally shooting the wrong person will land you in jail.

    What a mess it is. Remind me not to heckle any giant football players.
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  12. #12
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Deadly assault? Depends on whether it meets the legal requirements in my state. Mob situations are rough. I've been on the fringes, before. I have yet to be in a "stampede" situation or where an entire crowd (paying customers or the athletes) attacked others as a group. But I wouldn't allow myself to be taken down in such a situation. My tactic would to be to try emulating as closely as possible the proverbial "Korean shop owners" in Los Angeles during the eruption of riots after the Rodney King incident, in which they kept their backs to the wall (at their businesses) and shot any deadly threats who came close enough to harm them. I'd do everything possible to seek an out-of-the-way spot, "back against the wall" (so to speak), then I'd defend it with everything I had if I believed I was at severe risk of loss of life at the moment from a given attacker. Damn right.

    Nothing in such a situation dictates that a person need "suck it up" and withstand heavily violent group attack in such a manner, I don't give a damn that they're athletes at a game or whomever. You want to play the game of violently assaulting citizens? Then, you get to play the game of citizens defending themselves against you. Deal with it.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
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    Distinguished Member Array BigStick's Avatar
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    Having watched the video, it would be hard to justify. With players coming into the stands, you would have had ample time to get away, and most of the little skermishes had breaks in between where you could have seperated and escaped. But in some cases in general, being charged by a football team, yeah, I could see it going down where you might be justified.
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  14. #14
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigStick View Post
    But in some cases in general, being charged by a football team, yeah, I could see it going down where you might be justified.


    It all depends on the specific act, the threat and how immediate it is for a given person. On the whole, at the 500ft view, it's "just" a good old-fashioned melee. Lots of folks would see it as that, and it would bias and cloud their judgment toward disallowing a person who legitimate saw deadly threat as having the legal right to avoid being beaten to the ground. I'd bet many of those idiots in the attacking group didn't have the same "eyes" (or belly) for harming citizens as the instigators. In any score of engagements, one or two folks are likely going to see something very different than the guy just 10ft away. Depends completely on the specifics of a given engagement and attacker as to whether it's real or merely energetic.

    Still, we're all aware of the occasional news reports of people having been cold-cocked to death with a single swing or kick. Being attacked by many people who are far bigger, stronger and angrier than a person isn't something to lightly brush off. People die in such situations. Witness any of a dozen stadium riots in Europe for how easily it can occur.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
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    Member Array gruntingfrog's Avatar
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    The short answer, NOPE.

    The long answer is, I don't see an assault in this video I see a fight. The football players didn't "storm the stands and attack." Everyone I see involved stood up, puffed their chests and engaged willingly in a fight. If someone gets his butt handed to him because he picked the wrong person to fight (like a 250 lb. football player wearing what amounts to body armor AND his friends), that's his fault. (Granted; there are some engagements that begin off-screen but we can't make any statement on what we don't see.)
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