The Picnic

[chivvalry]

It has been my experience that not always, but sometimes, the more drastic a situation, the more drastic the solution required to alleviate it. Determining what and when is always the tricky part, not to mention the implementation of it.

While the response you described earlier as your actual experience and response is STILL not something I would have done as a first choice it was a much more reasoned response to the situation than walking over with a long gun, knocking over motorcycles, confronting the group with demands, and then kneecapping the first person you thought might be the "leader". I can actually put myself into your response scenario and consider a defensive display of force such as you describe... if there is no avenue of retreat or other better available response. I do, however, think you had other alternative courses of action you could have taken and that your display of force COULD have been considered a challenge and caused a significant escalation... possibly even an escalation to a situation requiring the use of deadly force.

[DefensiveCarry.com]

[oakchas]

Guantes' solution: Show 'em you're nuts!
Gman's solution: Show 'em your nuts!

Subtle difference, former more resultant in desired outcome than the latter.

[Guantes]

Chivvalry,
Possibly I could have chosen an alternative action, outcome unknown.
I consider it a judgement call and I made the call I considered the best course of action at the time, outcome known.
Next time, if there is one, I will make what I consider the best call, whatever that may be and go with it.

[glockman10mm]

Me too. You all converted me. Instead of kneecaps, I would have aimed about 14 inches higher and center.

[chivvalry]

Chivvalry,
Possibly I could have chosen an alternative action, outcome unknown.
I consider it a judgement call and I made the call I considered the best course of action at the time, outcome known.
Next time, if there is one, I will make what I consider the best call, whatever that may be and go with it.

Yep, definitely a judgment call and armchair quarterbacks with 20/20 hindsight are annoying as hell. As I said, your stated response is one that I could actually see, however remotely, doing and, depending on circumstances about the situation I do not currently know, might possibly have been an alternative I would have chosen... Some of the other responses... no way, no how, nuh-uh, not happening.

oakchas, LOL and I agree.

[BikerRN]

Chivvalry,
Possibly I could have chosen an alternative action, outcome unknown.
I consider it a judgement call and I made the call I considered the best course of action at the time, outcome known.
Next time, if there is one, I will make what I consider the best call, whatever that may be and go with it.

That's all any of us can do.

Biker

[Hopyard]

Yikes, I just spent 20 minutes writing a comment and the cybergods ate it up. So, here's the short version.

Quantes, were you an LEO at the time of your incident?

I think we have two different groups here. The majority of us need to git quickly especially if we don't live in a stand your ground state. We have a responsibility only to ourselves.

The lawmen may always legally stand their ground and they have an obligation to us all.

So, a guy like Glockman, trained in combat skills military and civilian, can have his wife take the kids and go for help while he stands his ground and confronts the BGs as a lawman. He may even get lucky and they will back down on seeing the badge; or he'll have good justification for leaving 6 dead and 6 severely injured.

The rest of us generally speaking need to git.

So, to Glockman and Quantes and the others a big thanks for dealing with this element daily and having the personal courage to do it.

The rest of us need to know our place in the scheme of things and how a DA would quickly ask why WE escalated the situation instead of leaving.

In contrast, our LEO friends have a right to confront to put an end to the drinking and disorderly conduct. If that escalation results in the BGs becoming threatening, our LEO friends have a legal right to use necessary force. Most of us do not have that option. We need to git outa there pronto.

[Hopyard]

I do, however, think you had other alternative courses of action you could have taken and that your display of force COULD have been considered a challenge and caused a significant escalation... possibly even an escalation to a situation requiring the use of deadly force.

Quantes, if a lawman at the time, would not have needed to worry about the legal consequences of escalating. He would have had a perfect right to demand the cessation of public drinking and disorderly conduct and to use force if need be--including lethal force given the disparity and the nature of the group's responses.

The rest of us, with few exceptions in stand your ground states, and I'm not sure to what extent those laws would offer protection, need to git fast.

[glockman10mm]

They say we are all damaged goods, damaged from bad experiences that have formed us into who we are. When I was a kid in elementary school, there was a couple of bigger boys who picked on me constantly. Getting pushed, shoved kicked around and hit was fairly routine. I was getting used to it.
We had a new kid from out of state move into our class, and he and I became really good friends. The only problem was he was a black kid in eastern ky. The only black kid in the school, and the first one I had ever seen.
One day the bullies decided they were going to beat him instead of me. I stood by and watched as they beat him to the ground. I was too frightened to help. I was afraid.
That night I went home, cried myself to sleep, ashamed of myself, afraid to go to school, of what tomorrow might bring.
Ashamed to face my friend.
Our play ground bordered a farm that had a row of old wooden fence posts that was unused and had no barb wire on it.
I found one that was loose, and spent two days jiggling it until I could get it out of the ground.
At lunch recess the next day, I skipped lunch to be the first one out to the playground.
I watched the bullies come out and start pushing other kids around .
I pulled my post from the ground, walked up behind them and let them have it. I knocked a homerun with the head of "Marty" and began bashing the other one until the old post broke.
That was the last time I was a victim. It was the last time I stood by as a coward and watched other people suffer at the hands of vermin.
Maybe that's what makes me who I am. It taught me that people like this will hurt you not just because of the color of your skin, or size, or whatever. They do it because they can get buy with it.
Oh, I paid like hell when mom and dad found out what I did, but I took all my licks with pride.
Years later I learned that Marty hit and killed a woman and her unborn child while driving under the influence of drugs. Almost a year later, her husband committed suicide.
Varmits like that destroy the lives of good people. They blemished what would have been great childhood memories.
So I want to be clear here, judge my response if you will, but it is clear for me.
HopYard, I appriciate you explaining what I am too ignorant to put into words as far as explanation.
I knew the consequences for my actions as a child, and I understand them now, and would let the chips fall where they do.
Oh yeah, something else I learned over the years is a preemptive strike is effective in some situations.

[bsnow]

Operation evacuation!!

[Guantes]

Hopyard,
Yes I was a cop at the time, already with a some years and a few riots behind me. With the atmosphere of the time, I doubt that a civilian in the same situation would have been given much trouble by the powers that be, but that is just a guess.

[chivvalry]

Quantes, if a lawman at the time, would not have needed to worry about the legal consequences of escalating. He would have had a perfect right to demand the cessation of public drinking and disorderly conduct and to use force if need be--including lethal force given the disparity and the nature of the group's responses.

The rest of us, with few exceptions in stand your ground states, and I'm not sure to what extent those laws would offer protection, need to git fast.

Yep, I think you nailed it. Even in a stand your ground state I'm not putting my main reason for existence, my family, in harm's way if I can avoid it. I'm not a LEO and don't have any desire to be one.... well, okay, I harbor an inner desire to rid the world of evil doers but don't want to put up with the horrible hours, extreme dangers, and lousy pay that our LEO's deal with just for the opportunity to go face to face with dirt-bags on a daily basis.

[chivvalry]

Oh yeah, something else I learned over the years is a preemptive strike is effective in some situations.

Not disputing that one at all!! LOL

[glockman10mm]

Chivvalry, I love what I do. Yeah the pays not what it should be, I'm still at work right now. Started at 0600 this morning. But everyday I get up and hope I can make a difference somewhere for someone. Over the years I have become dissapointed at the direction law enforcement has taken. It seems that thru political correctness and corruptness by a few, plus other things, we have for sometime now, been neutered to a grade of armed social workers.
We live in a society where the varmits and parasites of society feed on the weak, and have more protection under the law than the victims.
There was a time when people were ashamed of being in jail or being labeled criminals but that has changed.
New officers are so educated today that they can't do police work and are afraid to because they are looking at the next step or promotion.
When the enforcement of the laws and the pursuing of thugs and criminals is hindered, society suffers. Real honest to goodness people pay when the lawless elements of our society are given free reign. Drug dealers who are killing our children, street gangs and their kind should be the ones living in mortal fear for their lives, afraid to come out and show their faces, not the good people of this country.
Someone said I might have been a Texas Ranger in another life, I don't believe in reincarnation. But I do believe in posses with fire breathing horses reigning down hell on these types. And good rope and tall trees with strong branches on the courthouse lawns of every city.

[Tom G]

Some body forgot to pack the gernades . All kidding aside I would leave and when I made it to the car I would call 911.