The Picnic - Page 9

The Picnic

This is a discussion on The Picnic within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Originally Posted by INccwchris EB31, to answer your question, yes I know bikers, I know people who at one time were involved in the Outlaws ...

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Thread: The Picnic

  1. #121
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by INccwchris View Post
    EB31, to answer your question, yes I know bikers, I know people who at one time were involved in the Outlaws Motorcycle Club and may still be for all i know, I consider some of them my closest friends, but when you're dealing with a group of them that is getting rowdy and drunk and out of control, and they start making comments like that, I know whats coming. Someone is either getting a beat down, or worse. In fact I know a group of bikers who used to come hang out in the gravel lot next to the lot i sit in on my site, when construction started I had to tell them they couldn't hang out anymore because of the fences going up, and they said ok, we'll find somewhere else. Most of the time just treating them like people will work just like treating anyone with respect. But there are times like in this situation where a show of force may be necessary

    I agree with 99.9% of what you just said. No arguement there. What I've disagreed with this entire thread is not how to or how not to interact with bikers or anyone else....especially when ....IF....someones family's LIVES are in jeopardy.

    My arguement was, and still is, with anyone armed who would confront....basically instigating a lethal confrontation....over insults, words etc Makes it worse, in my oponion, when that person says they are LE.

    We, as armed citizens (LE moreso), have a responsibility to de-escalate situations where and when we can. Someone calling your wife a name, or saying what they would like to do to her, is such a situation. It calls for cooler heads to prevail. It does not call for an armed showdown to proves ones manhood. It's my opinion that anyone running around with such easy buttons to push...shouldn't have the ability to carry.


    Let that not be confused with cowardice yada yada and all the other excuses I hear. Someone disrespects my wife in our home...he might go through a wall. That's my home, my rules. I can control what goes on in my home. I can only control myself in the world....and how I react to things around me. There's something wrong with someone looking to "shoot the kneecaps" of someone who disrepected his wife.

    Just clarifying what the hub bub was about before we got any further astray.


    My opinion won't change.


  2. #122
    Distinguished Member Array INccwchris's Avatar
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    I see where you're coming from, I will change a little bit of my point and say that it would have to depend on the tone it was said in and the tone of the moment, other than that, you are right. I just get the feeling from this thread that it was meant as a threat or a we're gonna grab her comment, and not simply as a hey baby show us what you got comment.
    "The value you put on the lost will be determined by the sacrifice you are willing to make to seek them until they are found."

  3. #123
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Let's just cut the crap, EB31. I made it clear that it was NOT all about insults, even though that opened it up. IF, they came in their acting decent, and drinking their alcohol, I MIGHT have been inclined to look the other way. But when they start runnin their mouths, and trying to rub it in my face by showin thier asses, Houston, we have a problem. Now, I don't give a flying flip what your take is on it. As far as I'm concerned you sound you you belong to the hug-a-thug club. I don't. You can do what you do, but it's easy for you to set behind your keyboard and pass judgement and make your snide remarks. My estimation is you don't have enough sand in your a?? to make a stand for anything.
    You are the one who brought up interacting with outlaw bikers by talking about one in your family. "oh, there just runnin guns and drugs, nothin serious like rape or murder" you need to pull your brain housing group out of your popper shooter and wake up. Just guns and drugs? Are you havin Sunday afternoon dinner with them at there little club house? If you wear a badge, maybe YOU need to figure out what side your on. Lay with dogs and you will get fleas.

  4. #124
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by glockman10mm View Post
    Let's just cut the crap, EB31. I made it clear that it was NOT all about insults, even though that opened it up. IF, they came in their acting decent, and drinking their alcohol, I MIGHT have been inclined to look the other way. But when they start runnin their mouths, and trying to rub it in my face by showin thier asses, Houston, we have a problem. Now, I don't give a flying flip what your take is on it. As far as I'm concerned you sound you you belong to the hug-a-thug club. I don't. You can do what you do, but it's easy for you to set behind your keyboard and pass judgement and make your snide remarks. My estimation is you don't have enough sand in your a?? to make a stand for anything.
    You are the one who brought up interacting with outlaw bikers by talking about one in your family. "oh, there just runnin guns and drugs, nothin serious like rape or murder" you need to pull your brain housing group out of your popper shooter and wake up. Just guns and drugs? Are you havin Sunday afternoon dinner with them at there little club house? If you wear a badge, maybe YOU need to figure out what side your on. Lay with dogs and you will get fleas.

    I stand by my opinion. You want to shoot over insults and act the fool, go right ahead. Maybe I'll contribute to your commissary fund. My comments would be the same in person as they are online. Make no mistake about that. I speak my mind.

    Running around half cocked with a loaded weapon, not knowing how to turn the other cheek when someone tries to push your buttons is dangerous on so many levels. That applies to you or anyone else that says they would shoot someones knees for insulting his wife. Specifically what you said.

    I voiced my opinion. It's a forum, you'll hear opinions. You don't like my opinion, don't read it. No need to get all bent out of shape and attempt to make it personal. It just further proves my point.

  5. #125
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    I'm sure.

  6. #126
    Distinguished Member Array Jason Storm's Avatar
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    Leave the area while you continue to observe them. If you have to leave the picnic items behind, do so. The family and dog are more important. One you leave, make sure not you are not being tailed and also report them to the local authorities.

  7. #127
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    So after thinking about this I think this thread could be read as an analogy for society today.

    We as a society are being brainwashed to be subservient.
    You are just one. You couldn't possibly stand up for yourself. You must retreat in the face of oppression and let Us take care of you.
    What , you think your special? You think you can take care of yourself?
    There is no special. Everyone gets a trophy. No one is better than anyone else.
    The dregs of society understand this and prey on it as such. And the ones in control allow it, even protect them, try to keep us from protecting ourselves.
    Glockman and others like him are the real danger to the New Order.
    They refuse to be categorized, they refuse to be crated, they refuse to be beat down! They refuse to GET IN LINE!
    They are the True American Spirit & give me hope for our Great Country.
    Yes, you could be hurt, you could be killed even. But its better to die free than live in a cage.
    Our Founding Fathers knew this. Thats why we are here today.
    Its something we must all strive for, while theres still time.




    Oh.... I think I had to much coffee.....
    But Really!
    Freedom.... The Price Keeps Going Up, and the Quality Keeps Going Down.

  8. #128
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    Quote Originally Posted by radman View Post
    So after thinking about this I think this thread could be read as an analogy for society today.

    We as a society are being brainwashed to be subservient.
    You are just one. You couldn't possibly stand up for yourself. You must retreat in the face of oppression and let Us take care of you.
    What , you think your special? You think you can take care of yourself?
    There is no special. Everyone gets a trophy. No one is better than anyone else.
    The dregs of society understand this and prey on it as such. And the ones in control allow it, even protect them, try to keep us from protecting ourselves.
    Glockman and others like him are the real danger to the New Order.
    They refuse to be categorized, they refuse to be crated, they refuse to be beat down! They refuse to GET IN LINE!
    They are the True American Spirit & give me hope for our Great Country.
    Yes, you could be hurt, you could be killed even. But its better to die free than live in a cage.
    Our Founding Fathers knew this. Thats why we are here today.
    Its something we must all strive for, while theres still time.




    Oh.... I think I had to much coffee.....
    But Really!
    Oh come on now. THis has nothing to do with society, culture, politics, isms, guts, glory or any of that stuff. It boils down to some really straight forward issues we all deal with and pretty much agree on as a daily matter.

    NON LEO, you must not escalate, get out of the way to a safe place, avoid confrontation, use force or imply the use of force only in the gravest extreme. We all know that, and it has nothing to do with being controlled by a government, waiting for others to take care of us, or any of that 'stuff." It has to do with keeping a reasonably decent and orderly society. If you live in a stand your ground state the game still wouldn't change much with this scenario. You can't do nothing until they directly threaten you. Likely by the time that happens, it is too late. Hence the wise path is to LEAVE at the earliest moment that you see trouble brewing. That is always the wise path in our civilian world.

    For the LEOs, they have additional options for dealing with such a scenario. They don't have to fear being charged with escalating, or being charged with provoking an incident. They see disorderly conduct and have a right to act on it. They hear verbal assault and have a right to put a stop to it. They see threatening behavior and have a right to put it down. They see a storm brewing and have a right to quell it.

    If I see disorderly conduct, all I can and should do about it is leave and report. We hear that all the time here. Be a good witness.


    Glockman isn't talking about "shooting over insults." Guantes wasn't displaying his apple and rifle over insults. Guantes and Glockman are walking in different shoes from the rest of us.

    EB wrote, "We, as armed citizens (LE moreso), have a responsibility to de-escalate situations where and when we can."

    No, LEOs less so, not more so. Sometimes our LEOs have a responsibility to escalate, to put an end to a situation. They have to use discretion, but ending the behavior described in the first post is well within their prerogative, and they don't need to be polite about doing it or apologetic, or non-violent if they are met with resistance or reasonably believe their lives are in danger. This incident described in the first post wasn't about minor insults, and it sure wasn't about culture, government or society, it was about a run up to some very nasty violent and vile acts.

    I see exactly where both Guantes and Glockman are coming from. I wouldn't have the guts, but then I chose a different profession.

  9. #129
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Im losing my guts too in about 4 years Hop. And then, I'm right behind everyone else. Turn in my badge, gun, concentrate on fishing, hunting, reading a good book by the beach somewhere, and let the young stallions coming thru the door handle it.

  10. #130
    VIP Member Array Old School's Avatar
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    Cool

    Back in the day when I was with a major south Florida municipal police agency we had regular dealings with "The Outlaws" motorcycle club. Anytime they were riding in numbers (usually 10 or more) we made sure that if at all possible before a confrontation we had superior manpower and firepower on scene. Anytime any other agency be they FHP, county or other city had dealings with them the same held true. It has been a few years since the 1% clubs rode in numbers in our area. RICO did a number on them. That said they do still exists but they generally stay in their own areas and territory.
    They have their bars and clubhouses and stay with their own kind. That said the "Fast and Furious" crowd and the MS 13 and other gangs present the same type of possible scenario that this thread began with. Because of what I have seen over the past 42 years in law enforcement I am very selective about the areas I travel through and go to. The wife always carries. I always carry. There is always a 870 in the trunk. I hope I never have to make the call that the scenario depicts. Motorcycles are pretty easy to PIT. Not much ballistic protection on them either. You better be some BAMFers to continue the battle after seeing what can happen to some of your brothers and their two wheel steel horses (I rode for years as a younger man). I will attempt to leave without any problems but as my signature reads if you do not let me practice my Verbal Judo (Let a persons attitude drift like a boat down stream, focus on behaviour) I will not hesitate to deal with you accordingly. I retire next year and I plan on spending my "Golden Years" with those close to me in as quiet and peaceful a manner as others allow me to do.
    "Violence is seldom the answer, but when it is the answer it is the only answer".

    "A nation of sheep breeds a government of wolves".

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  11. #131
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
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    While an old stallion prefers his peace and tranquility, age does not change him to a gelding.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  12. #132
    VIP Member Array glockman10mm's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guantes View Post
    While an old stallion prefers his peace and tranquility, age does not change him to a gelding.
    Hopefully not a gelding. I plan on chasin the Mrs for a long time!

  13. #133
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
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    Gman-
    Thanks for sharing your story as a youth.
    I was bullied until I was about 16. I did something similar to "my" bullies who were picking on a gay student and a student with CP.

    I despise bullying in ANY form!

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    I think I would quietly begin to pack my things and leave once the bikers show up. (After all, I did want a quiet picnic.)

    I've always gotten along well with bikers.
    My uncle is a former hard core biker. I also have a good friend that is a former "Outlaw"; and several friends who are still in the 1% club. One of my other friends and former business associates has a father who is a 1% Warlock; (retired). I also grew up around the Saints MC in Memphis.

    I'm now am a Christian minister and have NO problems with bikers, druggies, street people or "other" outlaws. In fact God seems to bring them in my path in order to reach them for Christ.

    I've spent quite some time around bikers. Some Vietnam veterans turned "hardcore" bikers, took me in when I was 14; and I later served as head of security at a popular "Biker" bar. I've also been to a bunch of biker parties (even clubhouse parties); and I've seen a whole LOT of biker brawling.

    (I say all that to let people know where I come from on this subject.)


    I'm not a typical liberal pantiwaste white man and I would not be afraid and niether would my wife. However, I still would show them respect; and try to give them a wide birth. (That's basically all they want.)

    BUT!!!!!

    Should they choose to escalate from "verbal" bravado to "physical" altercation, I would have NO problem handling the situation.

  14. #134
    VIP Member Array ccw9mm's Avatar
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    If attention is being paid early on and if it's obviously getting worse, then it's going to be hard to justify any further steps unless I have made the attempt to leave. Sucks to be run out of a campsite like that, sure, but it's far better than the alternative. Looking on the bright side, there are plenty of such places to enjoy family time. That exact plot of grass shouldn't be so "valuable" as to put the family at risk for believing being right should risk what might easily turn into a "dead right" situation.

    This is one of the reasons I generally have a bit more firepower when out in the wilds. You simply don't know when you'll be cornered well out of hearing distances. Even so, the situation is a bad one if that group decides to get ugly. Better to be elsewhere, all things considered.


    Quote Originally Posted by radman View Post
    We as a society are being brainwashed to be subservient.
    You are just one. You couldn't possibly stand up for yourself. You must retreat in the face of oppression and let Us take care of you.
    WTH? I can absolutely "stand up" for myself. As anyone should know, there is often a time and place for things. But 15-on-one is a bit much, after they have begun to show negative interest that puts my entire family at risk. There's wisdom and stupidity, plus a whole range in between. Each person will have to decide for himself where he falls on that spectrum in a given situation, given the specific circumstances. But don't dare presume that others subscribe to your own beliefs, or that your own labels and names must of necessity apply to everyone else. Not everyone has the same maximum level of H2H skills, twenty spare magazines with lightning-quick draw, and family members who can avoid harm while chest-pounding with fifteen brazen people executing a coordinated violent harassment in the wilds.
    Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
    Thoughts: Justifiable self defense (A.O.J.).
    Explain: How does disarming victims reduce the number of victims?
    Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos).
    NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.

  15. #135
    Ex Member Array EB31's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ccw9mm View Post
    If attention is being paid early on and if it's obviously getting worse, then it's going to be hard to justify any further steps unless I have made the attempt to leave. Sucks to be run out of a campsite like that, sure, but it's far better than the alternative. Looking on the bright side, there are plenty of such places to enjoy family time. That exact plot of grass shouldn't be so "valuable" as to put the family at risk for believing being right should risk what might easily turn into a "dead right" situation.

    This is one of the reasons I generally have a bit more firepower when out in the wilds. You simply don't know when you'll be cornered well out of hearing distances. Even so, the situation is a bad one if that group decides to get ugly. Better to be elsewhere, all things considered.




    WTH? I can absolutely "stand up" for myself. As anyone should know, there is often a time and place for things. But 15-on-one is a bit much, after they have begun to show negative interest that puts my entire family at risk. There's wisdom and stupidity, plus a whole range in between. Each person will have to decide for himself where he falls on that spectrum in a given situation, given the specific circumstances. But don't dare presume that others subscribe to your own beliefs, or that your own labels and names must of necessity apply to everyone else. Not everyone has the same maximum level of H2H skills, twenty spare magazines with lightning-quick draw, and family members who can avoid harm while chest-pounding with fifteen brazen people executing a coordinated violent harassment in the wilds.
    Well said.

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