November 14th, 2010 11:53 PM
Walmart Parking Lot DANGER
This happened to my brother in law in the local Walmart parking lot a few days ago. He had been shopping, was leaving the store shopping bags in hand. (this was late afternoon not dark yet) When he got to his car, a "shabby looking guy" walked up to him and ask him for a light. My brother in law said "sorry I don't smoke" at which time the bad guy pulled up his shirt and showed him a large knife stuffed in his waistband, and said "how about your wallet then" My brother n law doesn't have his concealed weapon yet so he wasn't carrying. He stated he just took off running, back towards the store called 911, and informed Walmart management. He gave police all the information and that was that. But what worries me is the comment he made to me later on when he was telling me what happened. He stated that if he had of had his gun he would have shot the bad guy. My comment to him was he did the right thing gun or not. If he had a chance to retreat without having to shoot someone, that for sure is the best thing to do. He doesn't agree with me, and said he would have been justified, that may or may not be true but different states have different laws. Not to mention it's not worth possibly taking a life if it could be avoided. What do you guys/gals think?
November 15th, 2010 12:12 AM
If you have the opportunity and the ability to retreat (run) and escape the threat, then that's a reasonable action. With foot and knee issues, I'm not able to outrun much of anyone. I could certainly see deploying OC spray and/or drawing your weapon if you can't run and assessing the situation. If the person draws the knife or advances, it may not be reasonable to turn your back on them and run (and unlikely you'll outrun them running backwards).
Every state is different with regard to justified use of lethal force. Lifting of a shirt exposing a knife in the waistband is most likely brandishing a weapon, attempted armed robbery, assault, and may justify it...may not. You have to study case law in your state to see if there are cases with similar circumstances and how they have concluded. It's usually an eye opener and not as clear cut or simple as some may think.
Know Guns, Know Safety, Know Peace.
No Guns, No Safety, No Peace.
Guns are like sex and air...its no big deal until YOU can't get any.
November 15th, 2010 12:15 AM
Threatened with a knife, draw be prepared to stop the threat while making distance between yourself and the threat.
Two possible outcomes, BG retreats and you reholster and call 911.
BG brings knife to gun fight. Then call 911
To Add, In NC the law governing the use of deadly force states:
There is no duty to retreat before
using deadly force if the assault
threatens imminent death or great
bodily harm a murderous or
felonious assault or sexual
If the BG is close enough to converse and shows a knife I would consider that threat imminent.
November 15th, 2010 12:45 AM
If the felonious acting individual presents with Ability, Opportunity, and Jeopardy, retreating is but one of three options.
The first option, and the one that will cause the least headache and financial hardship, is to retreat. Shooting is the second option, and may be the best option for some. Also, just because you retreat doesn't mean the badguy doesn't get to put a knife in your back as you are running away. The third option, and not a viable one in my opinion, is to stand there and do nothing.
Your BIL chose option number one. There is nothing wrong with that, in this case. Each situation will have to be weighed on it's merits. Somebody else may chose option number two, and that may be the best of three bad choices for them. I would learn about the Tueller Drill if I were you, as it may help you to understand how far away somebody can be from you, armed with a contact weapon like a knife, and close that distance. The cliff note version is: I don't want you within fifteen yards of me armed with a contact weapon without my gun being aimed at you.
The big lesson from this scenario, in my mind, is MOVE!
Shooting is optional, moving is mandatory. It appears to me that your BIL aced this exam in the School of Hard Knocks.
November 15th, 2010 01:06 AM
If I can retreat I will. I truly do not need the headache of legal action, retribution etc. I would have done what your BIL did and run, gun or not. Glad he was OK.
Also remember, wolves travel in packs. Did he have a partner? That would definitely complicate things.
Preparing for the Zombie Apocalypse or Rapture....whichever comes first.
November 15th, 2010 02:04 AM
My thoughts? Distance is our friend. If I can retreat, I will. Even if it's only a little bit of space, distance is critical for avoiding being cut or hit, critical for gaining space to draw my own weapon, and critical for potentially escaping an ugly situation (which IMO is the best result of all). Except for attempting to disarm and disable the attacker, distance is our friend.
Originally Posted by thinktwice
Now, don't get me wrong, I believe every violent felon who threatens death of another should be tossed into an industrial-strength blender with one setting: frappe. I'm all for exacting punishments on felons. But when a knife-wielding felon is in my face, right there, the options are somewhat limited.
Having someone with a deadly weapon right there, in your face, isn't a game. BTDT, on a few occasions. It's absolutely and utterly deadly serious.
As a FIRST response, drawing one's own weapon in that exact situation is risky. Both sufficient time and space is required to do so. Gaining distance can provide that. Once distance has been gained, then as a SECOND response drawing one's own weapon can make a lot of sense.
But what you were mentioning to your brother is that avoiding a deadly encounter entirely has its own rewards, of avoiding the administrative and legal tangles that a shooting would involve.
The choice your brother made was to run, for escape. As he wasn't armed, himself, that's a sensible choice. He also avoided a shooting. But he left a deadly felon still standing, out there, almost certainly hunting for others. On balance, that's not a bad combination. He's alive and well, he now hopefully appreciates how damned important it is to be armed at all times, and he's got another perspective to consider.
Suggestion: Have your brother come to DC and review the archives. He'll get a variety of opinions and alternatives for situations much like the one he encountered.
Your best weapon is your brain. Don't leave home without it.
self defense (A.O.J.).
How does disarming
the number of victims?
Reason over Force: The Gun is Civilization (Marko Kloos)
NRA, SAF, GOA, OFF, ACLDN.
November 15th, 2010 07:56 AM
If he had the opportunity to escape safely (which he did) that was the right course of action gun or not. If the guy had a gun and could shoot him while fleeing than yeah by all mans shoot him.
November 15th, 2010 08:58 AM
I'd have drew on him and one upped him by saying "how about I put two rounds into your torso?" if he made one step in my direction I'd have let em have it. I have no sympathy for a knife wielding loser who thinks my labor is his.
November 15th, 2010 09:22 AM
Yall are looking at this all wrong.Now maybe you just know you can outrun someone,but thats not the case for some of us.Im not too big,but im much better at fighting than running.
Now heres the thing.He had the knife IN HIS BELT,NOT IN HIS HAND.It would have been easy as heck to knock that idiot off his feet.Why be scared of a weapon that would take 2 seconds to get to? The 'shabby dude' made a bad move by not taking the knife out in the first place.
November 15th, 2010 09:23 AM
I'm with Renegade on this one. I would have told him, "Yeah, here take it..." (as I reach for my EDC), then surprise him.
Originally Posted by renegade01
Glock 26 XD9sc
Ruger SR9c Ruger LCP
November 15th, 2010 09:33 AM
I don't know for certain what I would do.
Option 1: "Go for" my wallet, that motion would be interrupted unholstering the weapon at my hip.
He hasn't drawn his weapon, he is expecting compliance, he gets an eyeful of muzzle. Command him to the ground, arms out, call 911. I wouldn't have shot him unless he made further aggressive moves toward me. Chances are, he sees the gun, he's running... that's okay with me, I'm calling 911 anyway.
Option 2: Turn and run as your brother did. I don't run well, though. So this would depend on the apparent fitness level of the attacker, and probably wouldn't happen.
Option 3: Get into the car, and/or push the panic button on the key fob, as I've got to have had that out to get the bags in the car, while doing #1 or 2 above.
OP didn't give proximity of the attacker. There are some factors... are you both between the cars or is he near you but at the front of your car? does he have room to move? Do you? The less available maneuvering room, the more likely I am to have drawn.
I'd like to think that I'd have had my hand on my weapon, undrawn, as his hand hiked up his shirt. You've got to watch the hands.
It could be worse!
November 15th, 2010 09:38 AM
If I was alone I would draw my weapon and create distance while NEVER TURNING MY BACK to the man with a knife. If I was holding my 13 month old son I would have drawn and emptied the gun into center mass.
Carry on my friend~~
Smith & Wesson SW9VE
Smith & Wesson M&P 15
November 15th, 2010 10:18 AM
In a similar situation I have used a technique that I don't recall seeing discussed here before. If the BG is close enough (reach out distance can be your friend) punch or shove the snot out of him while backing and drawing. This creates distance and reverse momentum on the BG's part with a 'stun' as a plus. I'm not a 'run away' kind of guy since I have an arthritic ankle and frequently am accompanied by small children.
"Each worker carried his sword strapped to his side." Nehemiah 4:18
Guns Save Lives. Paramedics Save Lives. But...
Paramedics With Guns Scare People!
November 15th, 2010 10:41 AM
Create distance , draw and commence ventilating dummy.
November 15th, 2010 10:41 AM
I have little ones so running, for the most part, is not an option. I would have (I hate saying this) faked for the wallet and pulled my gun. At that range once I draw he is probably going to get shot unless he is French (then he would be able to surrender very quickly).
Little kids = no ability to run away.
It is surely true that you can lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink. Nor can you make them grateful for your efforts.
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