Church shooting scenario - Page 2

Church shooting scenario

This is a discussion on Church shooting scenario within the Carry & Defensive Scenarios forums, part of the Defensive Carry Discussions category; Maybe itís because I donít like kids and rarely enter a religious place of worship, but I think even if by some off chance I ...

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 41

Thread: Church shooting scenario

  1. #16
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    the North East
    Posts
    552
    Maybe itís because I donít like kids and rarely enter a religious place of worship, but I think even if by some off chance I was carrying (legally) I would be heading for the door the second I heard shoots from inside the building. The one bummer is I bet everyone else would too. I have no desire to be running around with a gun out looking for a shooter when NYPD busts through the door. Not worth the headache in my mind. I donít know what New Yorkís position on firearms in places of worship is so I donít even know if carrying in a church is legal.


  2. #17
    Member Array carryon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    135
    Quote Originally Posted by skyman View Post
    I believe in MO it is specifically stated "no church carry unless you have permission."

    We have a larger congregation and facility. To be a blessing to our local city and county LEO's, and a comfort to our attendees, we hire them to be very visible. One uniformed LEO and a plain clothes LEO at each weekend service. They not only watch over the children area, but guard the receiving of the offerings, etc. They would handle the disturbance.

    But, I know for a fact there are others roaming all the areas of the church that are carrying, too. Some staff and some volunteers. Some with permission, some not.

    To answer the OP, more than likely my wife and I would be on stage and due to the distance, not even hear the shots or scream. Do we have a plan? If so, I wasn't included.

    Oh, all our kids are grown, gone and in ministry. No grand kids yet.
    If you have a permit in Missouri, the law speaks to getting permission from the minister, but it is not a crime to carry into a church WITHOUT permission. They can just ask you to leave. If you don't leave, then it becomes an issue. It should never become an issue in the first place b/c they should never know you are carring CONCEALED! If a minister does get huffy about knowing someone carries in HIS chruch, then (at least where I live in Missouri) that church will lose most members VERY quickly.

    That being said, I'm on the volunteer security team at my church (1,000 attendance each Sunday). Their are serveral other posts about church security so I won't repeat myself on the whole process, but basically if this situation above happened, their would be approximately 20 security team members (all carrying concealed pistols) moving toward the sound of the gun shots. Personally, I would not pull my weapon until I absolutely knew WHO and WHY I was going to shoot. A guy running through a church (me) with a drawn gun is not a good idea when people are already frantic. Chances are, if the gunman/gunwoman was stil actively shooting innocent people, that person would be shot on sight. Our hired uniformed sheriff who patrols the lobby during services would be on top of the scene as well. We don't have a specific plan for an active shooter, mostly because there are way too many scenarios to have a "plan" for. That being said, all our security team members are either active or retired local/federal law enforcement officers. So to put it another way, if you want to come into my church shooting, you will be leaving in a body bag.
    Carry on my friend~~
    _________________

    Smith & Wesson SW9VE
    Smith & Wesson M&P 15
    Kel-Tec PF9

  3. #18
    Distinguished Member Array tcox4freedom's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    South Carolina USA
    Posts
    1,715
    Quote Originally Posted by carryon View Post
    If you have a permit in Missouri, the law speaks to getting permission from the minister, but it is not a crime to carry into a church WITHOUT permission. They can just ask you to leave. If you don't leave, then it becomes an issue. It should never become an issue in the first place b/c they should never know you are carring CONCEALED! If a minister does get huffy about knowing someone carries in HIS chruch, then (at least where I live in Missouri) that church will lose most members VERY quickly.

    That being said, I'm on the volunteer security team at my church (1,000 attendance each Sunday). Their are serveral other posts about church security so I won't repeat myself on the whole process, but basically if this situation above happened, their would be approximately 20 security team members (all carrying concealed pistols) moving toward the sound of the gun shots. Personally, I would not pull my weapon until I absolutely knew WHO and WHY I was going to shoot. A guy running through a church (me) with a drawn gun is not a good idea when people are already frantic. Chances are, if the gunman/gunwoman was stil actively shooting innocent people, that person would be shot on sight. Our hired uniformed sheriff who patrols the lobby during services would be on top of the scene as well. We don't have a specific plan for an active shooter, mostly because there are way too many scenarios to have a "plan" for. That being said, all our security team members are either active or retired local/federal law enforcement officers. So to put it another way, if you want to come into my church shooting, you will be leaving in a body bag.
    YEP!
    That pretty much sums it up for me as well.

  4. #19
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    1,271
    We have a very small church--about 200 members--and although we're fairly rural, LE response time would be under 10 mins (they've responded to the security alarm in the past). Kids age 10 and younger are in the main building, but the Jr./Sr. High kids are in the small building across the parking lot about 100 feet away. Shots fired anywhere on the property would definitely be heard because you can hear late arrivals driving across the gravel parking lot during service.

    I know at least three in church who definitely carry, and another half dozen I would bet money on. Although I've never heard of an "official" plan of action, I would definitely move toward the source in a hurry regardless of where it came from because sometimes the kids are outside.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    cafepress.com/bgstudios

  5. #20
    Member Array Boreal21's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2008
    Location
    Central Utah
    Posts
    67
    I can carry in any church in the state except for the one I attend
    I am sure there is no church sponsored security detail

    In our faith, the "main" service is attended by everyone, adults and children, so my wife and kids would be with me at the time of a shooting. While we are in the main meeting, other congregations would be out in the various classrooms, so it's entirely possible to have a scenario like the OP's. Since I am unarmed and don't even bring my sidearm in the car (we live ~3 blocks from the chapel), I'd probably be herding my family out the door away from the gunfire. Once outside I would have my wife walk/run the kids home (I'm guessing the parking lot would be total chaos), while I'd hang out from a safe vantage point until LE arrives. I know all of the city cops very well and most of the county deputies, so I'd make myself available to them in whatever way they'd like to use me. I'm also an EMT with an extensive jump kit in my car, so I'd be able to offer some first aid to any victims once the scene is safe.

  6. #21
    VIP Member Array Guantes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Idaho
    Posts
    5,272
    I would move toward the gunfire, but from the main exit, double door down the hall. This will allow me to advance toward the shooting while still providing some possible cover for the human traffic jam that would be exiting the main exit. The possibility of the initial shooting being just a ploy to cause panic and the traffic jam at the main exit allowing the shooter to wreak greater havoc would be on my mind. I would hope that a security team would entertain the same thoughts, albeit with greater capability.
    "I do what I do." Cpl 'coach' Bowden, "Southern Comfort".

  7. #22
    mkh
    mkh is offline
    Distinguished Member Array mkh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Location
    Foxhole somewhere in NE FL
    Posts
    1,675
    This situation is one of the nightmares that I have - CCW holders trying independently to "handle the situation".

    In Florida it is legal to carry in church. We have 3 services on Sunday mornings and about 1000 adults on campus (plus kids). I head the security team which is armed. Due to the three separate services it is hard to know everyone and I would hate for one of my team to mistake the well intentioned CCW holder for the shooter. I've tried to identify all the CCW holders who carry just so we can avoid this.

    I disagree with the tactics that carryon mentioned about 20 armed team members moving towards the sound of gunfire. If by that he means the whole team then they need to rethink things and have a better active shooter plan. My guys are trained to stand their ground and secure their locations and let designated team members handle the situation. For example some thought if we had a shooter on campus that they should leave the auditorium to help deal with it. Wrong. I have instructed them to put the auditorium on lock down and stay put. The last thing we need is for everyone to flock to where they think the gunman is only to find out that we have multiple shooters or one shooter who has gotten into the auditorium and is causing trouble in an unguarded auditorium.

  8. #23
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,053
    Jump now is as good a time as any get together with the others and set something up. You may be surprised to find they were thinking the same thing.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  9. #24
    Moderator
    Array gasmitty's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2007
    Location
    Gilbert, AZ
    Posts
    11,330
    EB31's reply defines my response.

    No kids of my own involved; I'm in that awkward age between kids of my own and grandkids.

    Yes, I carry in churches; legal in former state of CT and current state of AZ.

    My lady gets instructions to call 911 and identify location and what's going on, then to clear out. She knows what I'm about.
    Smitty
    NRA Endowment Member
    NROI Chief Range Officer

  10. #25
    Senior Member Array AlexHassin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    the North East
    Posts
    552
    Quote Originally Posted by mkh View Post
    This situation is one of the nightmares that I have - CCW holders trying independently to "handle the situation".

    I head the security team which is armed. Due to the three separate services it is hard to know everyone and I would hate for one of my team to mistake the well intentioned CCW holder for the shooter. I've tried to identify all the CCW holders who carry just so we can avoid this.

    .
    Is that common for places of worship in your areas to have member security forces? I sometimes see LEO’s outside places of worship at the time of their respective gatherings. However the only member security force at a place I have ever heard of or seen are the Fruits of Islam guys.

  11. #26
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,053
    Although we do not have it at our church several large churches commonly hire off duty LEO or have private security on site.

    If you think about it there is the potential for a large amount, to some people, of cash to be on hand at any one time with no armed individual to watch over it and the potential for some sort of violence from outside sources can be high.
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

  12. #27
    VIP Member Array chiefjason's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Hickory, NC
    Posts
    2,841
    It's legal to carry in my church, so I do. Not sure if anyones else does. Well, I know one lady carries a tazer after hearing her talk to the pastor.

    There is no plan that I am aware of. Though there was a mention of getting a security team together a few weeks ago. I have not heard anything since.

    My wife and both kids would be beside me.

    Get them down or headed towards the door. Then I would figure out what I could do. I could not, in good conscience, walk away from a shooting in a church. It's one of the few areas I will just assume that everyone there is able to legally defend themselves, so I can legally defend them too. That's the gist of NC's defense of third party. FWIW, we sit in the back, close to an exit, with a decent view of everything.
    I prefer to live dangerously free than safely caged!

    "Our houses are protected by the good Lord and a gun. And you might meet 'em both if you show up here not welcome son." Josh Thompson "Way Out Here"

  13. #28
    Distinguished Member Array jumpwing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Washington
    Posts
    1,271
    Quote Originally Posted by tacman605 View Post
    Jump now is as good a time as any get together with the others and set something up. You may be surprised to find they were thinking the same thing.
    I think you're right. We talk about firearms and target shooting and 2A politics, but nobody has actually discussed the specifics of carrying at church or any contingency plan for an active shooter; not as far as I know, anyway.
    "The flock sleep peaceably in their pasture at night because Sheepdogs stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
    cafepress.com/bgstudios

  14. #29
    VIP Member Array SIGguy229's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Kommie-fornia-stan
    Posts
    7,113
    Quote Originally Posted by mkh View Post
    This situation is one of the nightmares that I have - CCW holders trying independently to "handle the situation".

    In Florida it is legal to carry in church. We have 3 services on Sunday mornings and about 1000 adults on campus (plus kids). I head the security team which is armed. Due to the three separate services it is hard to know everyone and I would hate for one of my team to mistake the well intentioned CCW holder for the shooter. I've tried to identify all the CCW holders who carry just so we can avoid this.

    I disagree with the tactics that carryon mentioned about 20 armed team members moving towards the sound of gunfire. If by that he means the whole team then they need to rethink things and have a better active shooter plan. My guys are trained to stand their ground and secure their locations and let designated team members handle the situation. For example some thought if we had a shooter on campus that they should leave the auditorium to help deal with it. Wrong. I have instructed them to put the auditorium on lock down and stay put. The last thing we need is for everyone to flock to where they think the gunman is only to find out that we have multiple shooters or one shooter who has gotten into the auditorium and is causing trouble in an unguarded auditorium.
    I think you're reading too much into this...plus everyone's church is different in terms of size, physical layout, population, etc. What works for me will not work for someone else. I don't have a "team of 20"...I'm talking a group of 2-4 armed people (if everyone is there)...

    Not to mention, if you remember the last church shooting in Colorado...was stopped by a CCW holder...NOT a security guard.
    Magazine <> clip - know the difference

    martyr is a fancy name for crappy fighter
    You have never lived until you have almost died. For those that have fought for it, life has a special flavor the protected will never know

  15. #30
    VIP Member
    Array tacman605's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Arkansas/On the X in Afghanistan
    Posts
    3,053
    Chiefjason brought up a good point do you think about where you are sitting and position yourself for a tactical advantage?
    "A first rate man with a third rate gun is far better than the other way around". The gun is a tool, you are the craftsman that makes it work. There are those who say "if I had to do it, I could" yet they never go out and train to do it. Don't let stupid be your mindset. Harryball 2013

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Similar Threads

  1. Bad: Texas Church Shooting
    By PastorPack in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: September 29th, 2010, 02:19 AM
  2. Church shooting in NJ
    By Diesel 007 in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: November 24th, 2008, 02:12 AM
  3. another church shooting
    By packinnova in forum In the News: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: May 19th, 2008, 11:20 AM
  4. Carry in Church-again? - Missouri Church Shooting
    By miklcolt45 in forum Concealed Carry Issues & Discussions
    Replies: 54
    Last Post: August 21st, 2007, 06:37 PM
  5. Another church tactical scenario
    By soflasmg in forum Off Topic & Humor Discussion
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: April 11th, 2006, 10:31 AM

Search tags for this page

active shooter auditorium sanctuary
,
carrying in church a plan
,
carrying in church a plan jonconsiglio
,
church shooting concealed carry
,

church shooting senerio

,
church shootings scenarios
,
church threat scenarios
,
church+security
,
concealed carry in a church in indiana
,

defensive shooting scenarios

,

defensive+shooting scenario

,
discussion of shooting scenarios
,

news

,
scenarios about church
,
were to locate each security team member at church
Click on a term to search for related topics.