Defensive Carry banner

Church shooting scenario

4K views 40 replies 24 participants last post by  mkh 
#1 ·
You and your wife/SO are seated in church on Sunday morning. The main auditorium is rather large with a stage in the front and rows of pews. It is the main worship service and the auditorium is full of teens and adults.

Sunday School/Kids church classrooms are in the same building but through a set of double doors and down a hall in a separate room. The hallway is a horseshoe shape that goes around the main auditorium with rooms branching off from it. Exits are at the back of the auditorium and one on each side, however since the hall's shape you have cross the hall to go out the exit doors.

The service is interupted by the sound of two gunshots and a female screaming from the area of the kids classrooms.

Going by your particular state law, are you legal to carry in church and so on, how would you react? Are you carrying anyway despite the law? Do you have kids in Sunday School? How or would your reaction be different whether or not you had kids in the Sunday School?
You know that at least one other person in church is a CCW holder but is he carrying? If your church has security do they have an active shooter plan? Are armed members of the church part of that plan?

The purpose of this is to make you formulate a plan or run through the plan you may already have as to your actions. If you are not legal in your state to carry in church is it in your vehicle and so on.
If you do not have kids or a wife or SO what would you do? Please no responses of I don't go to church etc.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
You and your wife/SO are seated in church on Sunday morning. The main auditorium is rather large with a stage in the front and rows of pews. It is the main worship service and the auditorium is full of teens and adults.

Sunday School/Kids church classrooms are in the same building but through a set of double doors and down a hall in a separate room. The hallway is a horseshoe shape that goes around the main auditorium with rooms branching off from it. Exits are at the back of the auditorium and one on each side, however since the hall's shape you have cross the hall to go out the exit doors.

The service is interupted by the sound of two gunshots and a female screaming from the area of the kids classrooms.

Going by your particular state law, are you legal to carry in church and so on, how would you react?
In VA, the law is written you cannot carry unless there is "good and sufficient reason"--hint: my wife and kids are a good and sufficient reason (there is no case law on this, so the definition is wide to interpretation)--and if there is an active shooter, this just proves my point. What would I do? Scan and breathe....scan and breathe and move to the sounds of the guns looking for additional shooters, telling people to call 911.

Are you carrying anyway despite the law?
Explained above

Do you have kids in Sunday School?
Yes

How or would your reaction be different whether or not you had kids in the Sunday School?
No different. Why? Because how do I know the shooter isn't going to come after the rest of the congregation, including me and mine.

You know that at least one other person in church is a CCW holder but is he carrying?
Don't know...that's what communication is for, but if it's one of my friends, they are carrying.

If your church has security do they have an active shooter plan? Are armed members of the church part of that plan?
No. n/a.

The purpose of this is to make you formulate a plan or run through the plan you may already have as to your actions. If you are not legal in your state to carry in church is it in your vehicle and so on. If you do not have kids or a wife or SO what would you do? Please no responses of I don't go to church etc.
I still move to the sounds of the guns (carefully)...because I don't know if there is another shooter. Scan and breathe....scan and breathe
 
#3 ·
Sig that is a generic law would hate to be the first to test it.

You would do as I would travel to the sound of gunfire whether my kids were in there or not.
 
#5 ·
Sig that is a generic law would hate to be the first to test it.
Understood...but if there is a real shooter, and he/she is stopped by someone with a CHP (as it is called in VA), then the "good and sufficient" requirement has been defined. This would be a better test than someone "caught" with a concealed handgun in a church, arrested, and then have to defend why they have a handgun in a church.

You would do as I would travel to the sound of gunfire whether my kids were in there or not.
Amen.
 
#4 ·
Without getting fancy with the exact details of exactly how I would go about this scenerio...

The reality is...there's a shooter(s) in church. He is in or about the area of the children. I'm armed, he has to be stopped and there is no time to wait for law enforcement or anyone else.

There are times to be a good witness and there are times to act. This is a time to act.
 
#15 ·
This.

I'll worry about first responders when they arrive. Our last church, before the move, had at least 8 ccw who regularly carried and we trained together on occasion.
 
#6 ·
Absolutely. EBBBBBBBBB31 Where have you been?
 
#8 ·
SSDD give me a shout
 
#9 ·
I am certainly going to try and protect my grandchildren, but remember...the police have most likely been called, and YOU are planning to move around that church armed.
This is not going to go well when the police arrive. I would probably remain concealed as I slowly tried to investigate, and if possible, I would want to be on the line with 911...that could be of great assistance to my well-being.
Another matter would be other CCW permit holders who have similar intentions as mine...FL allows church carry, and I know others DO carry.
 
#37 ·
the police have most likely been called, and YOU are planning to move around that church armed.
This is not going to go well when the police arrive. I would probably remain concealed as I slowly tried to investigate, and if possible, I would want to be on the line with 911...that could be of great assistance to my well-being.
Another matter would be other CCW permit holders who have similar intentions as mine...
This would be my chosen option as well. I will certainly go check it out but I am not drawing until I get closer to where I heard the shots coming from. We have Sheriff's deputies in the church and they all know who I am. I also know many of the Deacons, and they know me.

I can legally carry in church in TX as long as it isn't posted with 30.06, and mine isn't. No one other than my Wife and kids know I carry, I think some suspect it but it has never been brought up.
 
#10 ·
Ret have you discussed anything like this with fellow church members? Are there any restrictions, so to speak, on Fla church carry?
 
#12 ·
This is an excellent post. I agree somewhat with retsupt. I would stay concealed and investigate until I determined the origin of the threat. If you have multiple shooters or a shooter laying in ambush for "investogators" to come. The man with the gun becomes the first threat and target. I alos have considered going with a different weapon for church carry for a different reason than just size. I typically EDC a G23. I am good with this gun at 25 yds easily, and with a steady hand or rest, out to 50. The thing that has to be considered is there will be multiple people in a very chaotic situation, scattering and screaming. This is where my J-frame would come in. I believe I would be forced to take closer and more conscientious shots, due to capacity, and range, and proximity of non hostiles. I of course would carry a speed loader. Unfortunately, we cant very well get away with a 12 gauge shotgun in the sanctuary. No church I have attended has a security plan or a policy on firearms. As far as I know there is no law against church carry in WV. The church I currently attend does have several LEO, who attend, as well as my coworker who carries, but leaves it in the vehicle a majority of the time. I attend with my M&P 340 in my right front pocket. and a speedloader in the weakside front pocket.
 
#13 ·
I believe in MO it is specifically stated "no church carry unless you have permission."

We have a larger congregation and facility. To be a blessing to our local city and county LEO's, and a comfort to our attendees, we hire them to be very visible. One uniformed LEO and a plain clothes LEO at each weekend service. They not only watch over the children area, but guard the receiving of the offerings, etc. They would handle the disturbance.

But, I know for a fact there are others roaming all the areas of the church that are carrying, too. Some staff and some volunteers. Some with permission, some not.

To answer the OP, more than likely my wife and I would be on stage and due to the distance, not even hear the shots or scream. Do we have a plan? If so, I wasn't included.

Oh, all our kids are grown, gone and in ministry. No grand kids yet.
 
#17 ·
If you have a permit in Missouri, the law speaks to getting permission from the minister, but it is not a crime to carry into a church WITHOUT permission. They can just ask you to leave. If you don't leave, then it becomes an issue. It should never become an issue in the first place b/c they should never know you are carring CONCEALED! If a minister does get huffy about knowing someone carries in HIS chruch, then (at least where I live in Missouri) that church will lose most members VERY quickly.

That being said, I'm on the volunteer security team at my church (1,000 attendance each Sunday). Their are serveral other posts about church security so I won't repeat myself on the whole process, but basically if this situation above happened, their would be approximately 20 security team members (all carrying concealed pistols) moving toward the sound of the gun shots. Personally, I would not pull my weapon until I absolutely knew WHO and WHY I was going to shoot. A guy running through a church (me) with a drawn gun is not a good idea when people are already frantic. Chances are, if the gunman/gunwoman was stil actively shooting innocent people, that person would be shot on sight. Our hired uniformed sheriff who patrols the lobby during services would be on top of the scene as well. We don't have a specific plan for an active shooter, mostly because there are way too many scenarios to have a "plan" for. That being said, all our security team members are either active or retired local/federal law enforcement officers. So to put it another way, if you want to come into my church shooting, you will be leaving in a body bag.
 
#14 ·
a group of us guys from our church (about 9-12) are headed to frontsight in late Jan for the 4 day defensive handgun course.....we live in very rural area, it would take the sherriff about 30 minutes to show up--so if someone has to be stopped, its up to us, unless we want to line up like targets at the old fashioned circus shooting gallery.......
 
#16 ·
Maybe it’s because I don’t like kids and rarely enter a religious place of worship, but I think even if by some off chance I was carrying (legally) I would be heading for the door the second I heard shoots from inside the building. The one bummer is I bet everyone else would too. I have no desire to be running around with a gun out looking for a shooter when NYPD busts through the door. Not worth the headache in my mind. I don’t know what New York’s position on firearms in places of worship is so I don’t even know if carrying in a church is legal.
 
#19 ·
We have a very small church--about 200 members--and although we're fairly rural, LE response time would be under 10 mins (they've responded to the security alarm in the past). Kids age 10 and younger are in the main building, but the Jr./Sr. High kids are in the small building across the parking lot about 100 feet away. Shots fired anywhere on the property would definitely be heard because you can hear late arrivals driving across the gravel parking lot during service.

I know at least three in church who definitely carry, and another half dozen I would bet money on. Although I've never heard of an "official" plan of action, I would definitely move toward the source in a hurry regardless of where it came from because sometimes the kids are outside.
 
#20 ·
I can carry in any church in the state except for the one I attend :rant:
I am sure there is no church sponsored security detail :rant:

In our faith, the "main" service is attended by everyone, adults and children, so my wife and kids would be with me at the time of a shooting. While we are in the main meeting, other congregations would be out in the various classrooms, so it's entirely possible to have a scenario like the OP's. Since I am unarmed and don't even bring my sidearm in the car (we live ~3 blocks from the chapel), I'd probably be herding my family out the door away from the gunfire. Once outside I would have my wife walk/run the kids home (I'm guessing the parking lot would be total chaos), while I'd hang out from a safe vantage point until LE arrives. I know all of the city cops very well and most of the county deputies, so I'd make myself available to them in whatever way they'd like to use me. I'm also an EMT with an extensive jump kit in my car, so I'd be able to offer some first aid to any victims once the scene is safe.
 
#21 ·
I would move toward the gunfire, but from the main exit, double door down the hall. This will allow me to advance toward the shooting while still providing some possible cover for the human traffic jam that would be exiting the main exit. The possibility of the initial shooting being just a ploy to cause panic and the traffic jam at the main exit allowing the shooter to wreak greater havoc would be on my mind. I would hope that a security team would entertain the same thoughts, albeit with greater capability.
 
#22 ·
This situation is one of the nightmares that I have - CCW holders trying independently to "handle the situation".

In Florida it is legal to carry in church. We have 3 services on Sunday mornings and about 1000 adults on campus (plus kids). I head the security team which is armed. Due to the three separate services it is hard to know everyone and I would hate for one of my team to mistake the well intentioned CCW holder for the shooter. I've tried to identify all the CCW holders who carry just so we can avoid this.

I disagree with the tactics that carryon mentioned about 20 armed team members moving towards the sound of gunfire. If by that he means the whole team then they need to rethink things and have a better active shooter plan. My guys are trained to stand their ground and secure their locations and let designated team members handle the situation. For example some thought if we had a shooter on campus that they should leave the auditorium to help deal with it. Wrong. I have instructed them to put the auditorium on lock down and stay put. The last thing we need is for everyone to flock to where they think the gunman is only to find out that we have multiple shooters or one shooter who has gotten into the auditorium and is causing trouble in an unguarded auditorium.
 
#25 ·
This situation is one of the nightmares that I have - CCW holders trying independently to "handle the situation".

I head the security team which is armed. Due to the three separate services it is hard to know everyone and I would hate for one of my team to mistake the well intentioned CCW holder for the shooter. I've tried to identify all the CCW holders who carry just so we can avoid this.

.
Is that common for places of worship in your areas to have member security forces? I sometimes see LEO’s outside places of worship at the time of their respective gatherings. However the only member security force at a place I have ever heard of or seen are the Fruits of Islam guys.
 
#23 ·
Jump now is as good a time as any get together with the others and set something up. You may be surprised to find they were thinking the same thing.
 
#28 ·
I think you're right. We talk about firearms and target shooting and 2A politics, but nobody has actually discussed the specifics of carrying at church or any contingency plan for an active shooter; not as far as I know, anyway.
 
#24 ·
EB31's reply defines my response.

No kids of my own involved; I'm in that awkward age between kids of my own and grandkids.

Yes, I carry in churches; legal in former state of CT and current state of AZ.

My lady gets instructions to call 911 and identify location and what's going on, then to clear out. She knows what I'm about.
 
#26 ·
Although we do not have it at our church several large churches commonly hire off duty LEO or have private security on site.

If you think about it there is the potential for a large amount, to some people, of cash to be on hand at any one time with no armed individual to watch over it and the potential for some sort of violence from outside sources can be high.
 
#27 ·
It's legal to carry in my church, so I do. Not sure if anyones else does. Well, I know one lady carries a tazer after hearing her talk to the pastor.

There is no plan that I am aware of. Though there was a mention of getting a security team together a few weeks ago. I have not heard anything since.

My wife and both kids would be beside me.

Get them down or headed towards the door. Then I would figure out what I could do. I could not, in good conscience, walk away from a shooting in a church. It's one of the few areas I will just assume that everyone there is able to legally defend themselves, so I can legally defend them too. That's the gist of NC's defense of third party. FWIW, we sit in the back, close to an exit, with a decent view of everything.
 
#30 ·
Chiefjason brought up a good point do you think about where you are sitting and position yourself for a tactical advantage?
 
#31 ·
All day, everyday. No matter where I'm at. It's been so long, I honestly don't even think about it anymore. It's become second nature. whether it's a restaurant, IHOP, church or the public library...I always gravitate to the seat that gives me the best vantage point of access points and everyone around me.
 
#32 ·
I can only speak for the church I attend. We have a well armed security team that trains alot. If Joe Blow jumps up, pulls a gun and starts moving through the church; if he is encountered by someone armed on the security team and they don't know he is not the shooter, Joe Blow is more then likely going to get shot. Our security team is there to address these situtations until police arrive. I would suggest you find out if your church has a security team and an active shooter plan. We try to find out who carries and when we know of someone who does, we ask them that they take care of themselves and their family and not to get involved if they don't need to. I know a lot of you don't want people to know that you carry but if you are going to carry in a church that has a security team, it may save your life if they know. Our teams stance is that we wished everyone carried, we are not in anyway against it but if something happened, we don't want any friendly fire accidents. Our plans have been approved by our leadership and insurance company.
 
#33 ·
I carry at church as it is legal in FL. In the proposed situation, I would try to get to a position of some cover while being able to scan the direction the gunfire seems to be coming from. My wife would be either behind me or as physically covered as I could do and still return fire if threatened. I carry to defend my wife and myself from an immediate threat. The police having been called just makes too many possibilities for mistaken intentions. I could foresee general and localized panic, adult and children. I have no intention of adding to the mix.
 
#34 ·
I'm sitting at the back and am out the door while people are still wondering what is happening. Move quickly at low ready towards the sound and do what has to be done. There are probably other carriers, they will either be ahead or (likely) behind me. Identify and neutralize, holster, then wait for the calvary to arrive.

Our church has ~100 at service, several rooms of kids in a different wing. No security team or plan, but it shouldn't take too long to tell the good from the bad, especially since you know/recognize most of the people.
 
#35 ·
John find those other carriers and talk it out. If nothing else so everyone knows who is who if something should happen.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top